Process Not Product (#623)

A dip into the ol' mailbag includes some input from women about previous comments on the #metoo movement and how women are treated in our culture. Then Brad and Wayne share a beautiful story about God winning someone out of their destructive, self-righteous arrogance and into the transformative love of the Father. Religion sets our focus on the product, leading us to frustration wherever we fall short, instead of teaching us how to relax in the process of Jesus taking shape in us. When our focus is on progress not perfection, we can much more freely yield to his work in us and we'll be much more gracious to the people still in process around us.

Podcast Notes:
Order Wayne's newest book: Beyond Sundays
Wayne's Travel Schedule in early 2018
The latest news from our project in Kenya
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15 Comments

  1. I really like the juxtaposition between Wayne (the elder son, Luke 15) and Brad (the younger son). This is my perception, not what they said about themselves. 🙂
    It would be totally boring if there was two of either one of you.

    Love Brad’s comment, “we have devolved into… religious instruction.” The great falling away began when Constantine co-opted the church to create a harlot religion. We have been involved, to some degree, in this devolved state of religion ever since. Martin Luther nixed the clergy for a time, but then re-instituted the priesthood to stop the cry of the people to fill the pulpits. He took the RCC priest, removed the formal confessional and transubstantiation, and… whalla, we have today’s Pastor (the OFFICE of the Papered, Professional Pastor [PPP], not the Biblical GIFTING of the pastor/shepherd – they are not the same thing!). Still based upon the priest-craft of Rome, not a relational gifting AS A PART OF THE BODY. Over 1800 Pastors quit the “ministry” every month in the USA alone. It is so hard on them! They are isolated and lonely, the odd-man-out, trying to uphold a paradigm that is not even Biblical.
    Religion = creating our own identity based upon our fallen “grid,” doctrines of men and of devils.
    Relationship = accepting God’s given identity of us as He sees us.

    “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
    I used to read 1 John 2:3 as a legal basis for how I was doing with God. Now I see evidences of my faith by the changes He has made within me – when I no longer struggle with something and KNOW that I did not change me, He did. Praise His Holy NAME!

    Keep up the good work!

  2. Oh Brad. I often I wonder what kind of utopia you were raised in. I’m not trying to criticize. But you often seem so baffled and shocked over the crazy stuff people believe and think. You keep saying, “Why…?…What makes people…” Just FYI…the answer is always ‘the fall.’ We are the man born blind. Maybe I have just become cynical because I was raised in so much religious crap, but your innocent puzzled self cracks me up. I love you man. I’m happy for you…

    • Life is not all rainbows and puppy dogs. Me thinks you presume much in regard to some “utopia” –but if the entry point to my questions cracks you up and brings some levity and laughter, great. I do have a hunger to scratch below the surface, so my “why’s” are an attempt to get there. Blessings on you. B

  3. I have noted the use of the term “the fall” throughout some comments and the entirety of my life. I am not so sure where the term comes from, but do think it’s somewhat hilarious when one sees that we are still in the same place. (Perhaps it’s just my renewed sense of humor reviewing my own inabilities.) God came to walk in the cool of the day with Adam, etc. Rather, even the act of falling from grace seems totally lame now, but not back in my day of performance and preference. A past full of critical religious zeal that alienated people by my actions and exclusive language. The talk of the testaments speaks of a veil, once in Christ it is removed. The veil was rent but does exist because of the law, which Christ fulfilled; even the gentiles , who had a law written upon their own hearts, which was not the commandments, are separated by a veil. And if God’s spirit walks, and Jesus walked, among us it is in the same place merely divided by a veil. Maybe the term “the fall’ is a religious leftover which we need to bury somewhere outside the camp. In so many words, the core is the tree from which we were told to not eat – the tree of the knowledge of good and evil – and we have been behind the veil ever since. That was long before any other person made a poor choice to invent an identity which could only be truly made known through Christ. Another great chat gentlemen, thanks for letting us eavesdrop… Keep those cards and letters coming to Wayne at life stream, lol!

  4. Guys, I’m just catching up on this pod cast and I wish I could call in! I haven’t listened all the way through but I had to stop and write.
    You’re right, Wayne, that my previous comment wasn’t about Pence.
    It was actually a comment about Brad’s statement of in the earlier podcast about how women could be complicit by silence and “let” men harass them for so long.
    My point was that when we are not given a seat at the table, when we have no voice then how can we stop it?
    The Pence example, was just an example but it remains a good one because it shows the history of what has created the imbalance of power in our world.
    That is the underlying issue.
    If women had more authority there would be less of an expectation and acceptance of bad behavior from men.
    Women would have equal respect and consideration.
    Brad, from where I stopped the podcast you were giving the example that a maybe part of Pence desire to not socialize women alone could be because the man would be a target.
    You can say that today, with the recent me too movement- because that is a current fear, but I have my doubts that “being a target” was something that ever crossed his mind, nor the minds of countless of men in the past who disregarded capable women for a man.
    Brad, I just don’t think you have an understanding of what it means to be a woman. (I hope that made you laugh 😉 …but, seriously, I also hope you can stop and maybe start to look at things from a different perspective, and try to understand the experience even if you don’t share it.

  5. And please don’t take this as something about or from someone who needs “power” …I don’t necessarily subscribe to hierarchy models of any kind. I personally don’t always feel like anyone needs to be “in charge”. However that is a model that is everywhere in our society.
    Most organized things have a person or people in authority, and they are often the ones who influence what is acceptable, – if women aren’t a part of that then what’s acceptable is skewed towards one demographic ‘s understanding.
    Does that make any sense?

  6. Lindsey! Ahhhh! Thank you for your comments and your email you sent in!!!!! I have experienced brothers in Christ not able to hug me or look at me or even associate with me….this is NOT helpful especially coming from my background feeling completely dirty and impure from my relations with men until Christ set me free…it wasn’t until I went to a mission group that a brother that hugged me, massaged my shoulders and I was touched by the feeling of what a brother is!!!!! This whole men need to be separate from women hinders what men were created to be for their sisters in Christ and it totally has kept the men in power. Think of it this way….a small example…if the Pres or Vice was a woman and she had a business meal with a man would that even be considered a thought???? No way! The very cheering on a man for not being alone with a woman that’s not his wife is a religious hinderance that keeps women dishonored and like Lynsey states sexual object. Please brothers don’t be afraid of us…PERFECT love casts out fear…rules don’t usually work in love….yes boundaries do and for everyone that may be different and I cheer my brother on if the Holy Spirit has led him to do that but to cheer on as an evangelical law such as “only side hug girls or don’t hug them” “only go in groups never be alone” etc etc…hinders the woman to be encouraged in her value and worth.

    • Hi Victoria. Thanks for your comment. As a single woman with no children in church I have been treated the same. As a danger. It sucks and doesn’t allow for beneficial relationships, that is so true. I’m not necessarily opposed to someone having their own boundaries in regards to not having dinner with people of the opposite sex etc. I just don’t like the assumption that it’s the “right” way. And in reality, as I was trying to point out, leaves women out of leadership, and reduces their influence. …
      Brad, I’d love to hear back from you.

  7. Lindsey, yes! You articulate so well! Thankful for your voice here!

  8. This is where sexual brokenness does so much damage, not only to the victims who are treated as sexual objects, but also making genuine affection between brothers and sisters suspect. Thanks for your input here. I wish we could have had you call in, Lindsey. This is important stuff. I had a women ask me in Ohio, “Wayne, can you tell me what it is about my body that makes me do disgusting to God?” I asked her if she’d really be taught that, and she’d said that she had. My heart breaks that someone would live 40+ years of their life thinking they were not treasured and valued by the most endearing Father in the universe. I’m not sure what the fix is here, but I want sisters around me to feel deeply loved and valued, and not in any way at risk from me, nor a risk to my marriage. It’s a tragedy that affection gets so sexualized in our culture, that the genuine article becomes unrecognizable.

  9. What you said here Wayne, “I’m not sure what the fix is here, but I want sisters around me to feel deeply loved and valued, and not in any way at risk from me, nor a risk to my marriage. “ means so much to just hear as a sister. I didn’t learn women to be valued from my upbringing and didn’t learn it furthermore in the institution. When I left the structured setting God crossed my path with dear friends still today that are “outside the box of organized religion” and the husband is another brother who I felt like a real brother…not afraid of me and having sincere care. He is a personal trainer and massage therapist and below is a timely quote from his wife on their business blog this week:

    “Something else I love about my man is that this love, care and dedication carries over into each of the lives he impacts in his job. I know that he sees every client at Better Body Movement as intrinsically valuable, precious, and worthy of his best efforts. When I refer someone to make an appointment with Shea, I know he will take the best care of her. I know that if he isn’t equipped to help, he will refer her to someone who can. I know he will always have her best interest in mind. That’s just the kind of man he is. “

    I did feel valued by him and never a danger or a threat…in the summer time my girls and I were at the beach everyday and my friends’ work schedule often allowed him and their kids to come while his wife my dear friend worked at their health store…he would come and sit by me and we would chat, laugh, and encourage each other. How lovely to have a brother not be afraid of me and just know we are all for each other not threatened.

    My husband knows my worth and that is a priceless treasure to me that I pray my girls will have.

    I think fixing any problem just starts with the person in front of you…wherever He places us whether that be a massage therapist/trainer who values each and every client, an author and speaker who shares with his audience, or a stay at home mom raising young girls to know their value and identity in Christ this is at least a small but also grand start.

    Also it would be interesting to have a panel podcast or call in with Lyndsey and a couple brothers I know (the one I shared here) and another older more father figure that truly live outside the box in this issue and it’s beautiful the way they honor honor and help sisters.

  10. Victoria, I love your idea, though we don’t really have the technology for a “panel” podcast and they are usually hard for people to follow on audio only. But I do love that we’re talking about this issue and looking for ways t de-objectify women. And I also know that every time someone who presents themselves as a “safe place” for women to be loved and cared for, stumbles into exploiting or objectifying them sexually, that it makes it all that much harder for women to ever trust again. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give it our best. I’ll be glad when this world is fully restored in the purposes of its Creator and it will truly be a safe place for everybody!

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