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[jdh]

Go to http://revealnow.com/story.asp?storyid=31 and watch the video of Greg Hawkins (long one). Then watch Hybels. Note how "they are on to something" and yet are trying to salvage the institutional church while addressing the real problem. Might make for some good discussion.

John

[wildwoodflower89]

It was interesting to hear that many "mature" believers felt the institutional church . . .  in this case, Willow Creek . . . wasn't feeding them.  It's sad to know that after being in the system for so long and being involved with all of the programs that they were still dependent on the system to feed them.  Unfortunately, I've heard other believers say the same thing.   :'( 
 
I have a baby granddaughter just born on Tuesday.  Her parents have to do everything for her.  She's totally incapable of feeding herself.  All she can do is cry if she's hungry and my daughter, her mother, feeds her.  That reminds me of the state of these so called mature believers who can't even feed themselves.  Eventually, my granddaughter will learn to feed herself and, some day, not only will she be able to feed herself but she'll be able to feed her own children.  That is natural growth and maturing which should be mirrored in the church.

I think it's interesting to hear that the solution being proposed by Willow Creek is another program to develop believers who can self-feed.  It'll be interesting to see what happens with this new programs  Hopefully, it'll accomplish the goal or maybe, in 10 years, they'll have another study that shows they spent millions of God's money on another program that didn't produce the desired result.

Aida       

[jdh]

As I was watching Greg Hawkins go through the chart, he said "we create all the programs in order to produce disciples"

I don't think that is the only (or even main) reason they create the programs. When I was a leader in the IC, I liked the programs because of the affirmation and feelings of importance they gave me. And I justified them by saying my intention was to produce godly disciples. But to be honest, my real motives were to make myself look good.

To do what it takes to produce godly disciples requires much courage and self abandonment, because it means to get outside the system and walk alongside other believers. There's not a lot of public affirmation for that!

[Grace]

Is re-organization what is needed? Systems need re-organized on a regular basis. Life in Jesus....following the Spirit, is wild and unpredictable and I just don't know how that can be contained within a system....well organized or not.

"No doubt some will reply that God is not a God of disorder, incoherence, or arbitrariness, but a God of order. Of course he is. Unfortunately the whole of the Old Testament shows us that God's order is not that which we conceive and desire. God's order is not organization and institution (cf. the difference between judges and kings). It is not the same in every time and place. It is not a matter of repetition and habit. On the contrary, it resides in the fact that it constantly posits something new, a new beginning. Our God is a God of beginnings. There is in him no redundancy or circularity. Thus, if his church wants to be faithful to his revelation, it will be completely mobile, fluid, renascent, bubbling, creative, inventive, adventurous, and imaginative. It will never be perennial, and can never be organized or institutionalized. If the gates of death are not going to prevail against it, this is not because it is a good, solid, well organized fortress, but because it is alive; it is Life that is, as mobile, changing, and surprising as life. If it becomes a powerful fortified organization, it is because death has prevailed."  The Subversion of Christianity   Jacques Ellul

Isn't this the biggest problem trying to contain this in a system creates for us? Jesus said he did nothing accept that which he saw his Father doing. One of the last things he asks Father is that he would send us into the world as he had sent him into the world. Jesus didn't operate within a rigid system, he lived in the moment doing what he saw Father doing. How can this ever happen in a system where people are taught to follow principles and well thought out strategies? The uniqueness of each and every person or situation and what Father might be doing in that moment gets missed because people aren't being led by the active living Spirit.....aren't they just being taught to apply religious principles that their particular system has determined to be the most productive?

[TS Alfabet]

wow.  the "next big thing" in evangelical circles is upon us.

seriously, close your eyes for a second and re-imagine the videos as not Hawkins and Hybels but Steve Allen and Bill Gates (the Microsoft folks, right) who have just done a bunch of market research and discovered that they are not reaching their target audience.   So the punch in the gut here is that our institution/business is not satisfying the customer like we thought it was and think it should be.  So we're going to re-think our business model which means....(trumpets please): more effective programs and selling to satisfy those customers.

the hopeful thing I found was Hawkins talking about teaching people to grow in their intimacy with Jesus.   Unfortunately, the way Bill Hybels seems to apply that is to come up with personal, spiritual trainers for the maturing believers through a program called "Personal Spiritual Growth Plans."   Strange.  I thought each of us has a personal, spiritual trainer:  the Holy Spirit.  Where do we get the idea that we can replace him or do a better job than he can in peoples' lives?

It is so hard for us to let go of systems and control of others.  Willow sees the problem right there in front of them: people are not learning to have a personal walk with Jesus that sustains them because these people (says the survey) are looking to Willow to keep feeding them.  So the solution is to make them dependent on a new program from Willow, Personal Spiritual Growth Plans, rather than releasing them to the Spirit.

[fanchon]

I have to  say that the congregation that my husband and I are most familiar with is going to be part of some kind of survey of 500 churches that Willow Creek is doing. It is called the "Spiritual Life Survey". http://www.revealnow.com/storyPage.asp?pageid=7 Whatever it is the pastor is gung ho (yes, he is an ex-marine) about studying the environment of the gathering to find out what will make people grow spiritually.  He wants everyone to take this survey so that he can make "...key strategic decisions about the direction and ministry focus for this church."

I understand that this is how churches do business these days but it has never felt right to me to look to surveys or others' mega-church programs to find out what to do next.  Believe it or not this same congregation had a specific 'word from the Lord' on which to meditate and listen for the Holy Spirit on what to do next but seemingly has shelved it in favor of this kind of thing. The leadership seems to be willing to go for "surveys says..." but I wonder if they will be comfortable with the results.

[jdh]

"Whatever it is the pastor is gung ho (yes, he is an ex-marine) about studying the environment of the gathering to find out what will make people grow spiritually."

What is so sad is that all he has to do is look at scripture to answer that question. Eph 4:16-17 "...speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

It doesn't take massive programs, millions of dollars, and thousands of man-hours to do this! It really grieves me to hear of a local assembly abandoning a word from the Lord to pursue a business model.

[Tina]

Life in Jesus....following the Spirit, is wild and unpredictable and I just don't know how that can be contained within a system....well organized or not.

 Jesus didn't operate within a rigid system, he lived in the moment doing what he saw Father doing. How can this ever happen in a system where people are taught to follow principles and well thought out strategies? The uniqueness of each and every person or situation and what Father might be doing in that moment gets missed because people aren't being led by the active living Spirit.....aren't they just being taught to apply religious principles that their particular system has determined to be the most productive?

Most productive, most safe, or all of the above?  God is not safe.  The word from God that fanchon mentioned was probably not safe.  It involved waiting on further instruction from the Holy Spirit.  We don't want to wait, we want a plan!  We want something we can define, a routine or formula that has always worked.  If the old one isn't working, we'll take a survey and come up with a new one.

I'm not picking on anyone here.  I see all of these things when I look in the mirror.  Give me a rule, give me a manual.  But please don't give me a messy relationship.

[blog in him]

hello kevin,

i really enjoyed the animated additions you added to your post.  andrew jones (tall skinny kiwi) - did an excellent job pointing out that the whole "church satisfaction" thing seems really off.  is that really the issue when it comes to walking out the collective reality of being a Jesus-apprentice?  one of barna's articles was entitled something like "house churches provide more satisfaction".  that was the one that andrew responded to (back a few months ago).  it appeared to me that this is the same thing that the willow creek staff are really getting into: "satisfaction".  so - is satisfaction the driving force of what people do with their sunday mornings?  i know what i am doing today: spending time with my family and then i watching some serious nfl football this afternoon.  and the most satisfying part of it all: i sense that such is in harmony with the leading of God's Spirit for me today.

blessings bro,
rob

[blog in him]

A few years back, I would have concluded, you were deceived, (Big Time) believing God's spirit would lead you anywhere but to church on Sunday Am.  Your freedom would have irritated me greatly.  Of course, a prisoner is always envious of a free man!

me too brother, me too.  if it is any consolation - i did go to a road race this morning to encourage a friend who was running his first half marathon.  that has to score some points in the "led by the Spirit" category - but then again - if my friend was really "in tune with God" he would know that to run a race on sunday is not cool "with God". [i should have recommend that he watch "chariots of fire"]

blessings bro,
rob