Let Talk Sex (#530)

North Carolinians are battling transgendered restrooms. Time Magazine runs a cover story on how pornography ruins sexual intimacy in real life. Ours is a sexually dominated culture to be sure and Wayne and Brad plunge into the issues politically and personally. By viewing our sexuality as an act of personal freedom instead of as a transcendent activity we have devalued and twisted it into its most unfulfilling forms. How can we manage the sexual confusion and controversy in our culture and still offer people life in Jesus? How do we manage sexual temptations ourselves, realizing that God hasn't forbidden expressions of sexuality to keep us from having fun, but to explore a gift without being destroyed by it or destroying others.

Podcast Notes:
Information on the GJ Trip to Israel
We All Need Sexual Healing (Christianity Today, September 2015)
Time Magazine articles are no longer available to nonsubscriber, but here's a link to an article about the article.
Wayne's Travel Schedule
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  1. Brother Wayne in the Lets Talk About Sex podcast your zeal to protect the weak and vulnerable transsexuals prevented you from hearing or regarding Brad’s zeal to protect weak and vulnerable 14 year old girls. In fact you accused him, and anyone who shared his views, of being unloving yet he never once accused you of being unloving towards his daughter.

    This love and care for the vulnerable is complicated and the knife cuts both ways.

    Brad was right, honest and open dialog on solutions is what we need.

  2. Where I live there are toilets for disabled people. They are usually separate from the mens and womens and available to either gender. The transgender people are disabled in their own way a d should be comfortable using these..

    • I dunno. I have the feeling that the transgendered would like to be seen as ‘normal’. To give them the privileges of someone who is disabled, would seem to me a double standard. But there are transgendered people who are disabled, who should be extended those rights. They consider their disability seperate from their transgendered status.

  3. It seems the issue that ties the transgender and pornography debates together is the issue of privacy. Brad put it so eloquently at the end of the podcast, when describing having a fire in the fireplace, versus on the living room floor.

    We, as a society, seem to have lost our sense of privacy. We seek peace at any price at the expense of pain that enables transforming, positive change, and we end up putting our warts on display, instead of our jewels.

    God does not see us the way we see us. And the insttitutional church does not help our image of ourselves in that regard. It only reinforces our sinful nature week after week, instead of seekng the redemptive power of Jesus, who was sent to us to transform it.

    Personally, I don’t want or need to know the dark places of other people’s lives, that is between them and God, and a struggle that should be fought, but only God can win.

  4. Enjoyed the podcast as usual.

    Wayne, I appreciate what you said about the Wailing/Western Wall and not wanting to intrude on what others find holy. For me, when I was in Israel in 2006, it by far was my favorite place and I actually went twice. I also did the tour inside, but praying at the wall was just really sacred to me.

    To Brad’s point about the minority, sometimes the minority needs to be heard, protected, and have changes made in their favor. As a racial minority, I can’t help but think where we’d be if that argument was used in other contexts. But, having said that, I’m not angered by what he said. In fact, I’m very appreciative for thoughtful people and a venue where issues can be discussed calmly and rationally with all sides being heard and considered.

  5. The greatest danger to 14 y/o girls and boys and adult women is from adult males who act, dress and talk like heterosexual males. Transgendered males who dress like females and use a female bathroom are not interested in girls or women.

    Maybe we should worry that those heterosexual guys will dress up like transgendered people in order to take advantage of the law? Maybe that was Brad’s concern? Unfortunately the number of heterosexual males who sexually abuse children and women outnumber the whole transgendered population in our country.

    As for teens thinking 30% of the population is homosexual or whatever and them being further misinformed. If you’ve talked to any teens recently or remember being one, they often believe things that are untrue. It’s all part of the process of growing up. When I was a teen, I thought working full time would be like the Love Boat, on TV.

    Really loved this conversation. And all the recent ones too, though I’ve mostly been lurking. Thank you, Wayne and Brad.

  6. I don’t see this as a contest of who we’re going to love and who we’re not. We get to love people caught on both sides of this divide. I read an article this week that rightly pointed out that 14 year-old girls have more to fear from predators who dress up as teachers, coaches, clergy, and Sunday school teachers than they do men who dress as women to lurk in the ladies restrooms. Much of the conversations I’ve had with people over this who want laws to restrict bathroom are really frustrated that Christians seem to be losing the culture wars in so much of the sexual orientation/gender identity legalities. I think what they miss is that these laws are wining not because society wants to promote certain lifestyles, but to protect powerless people from abuse, violence, and suicide.

    • “If it was your son or daughter…”

      Wayne and Brad, that is my reality. And it has turned my world upside down in so many ways. I have spent the last year reading, listening to, and learning from our Christian LGBT brothers and sisters and their allies. For me and for them it is not an issue, it is about who they are as a person. I so appreciate the perspective that Wayne shared in his comment above. “protect powerless people from abuse, violence, and suicide.” I am not ignorant to the protection of my 3 other daughters either.

      Transgender people and their need to pee are nothing to laugh about. Please, just be aware that this is a sensitive issue and all people deserve the highest regard for their dignity, humanity, and reflection of their creators image.

      Peace brothers!

  7. No worries about ‘rumors in Idaho’ Wayne, I knew you wouldn’t have used a term like dumbass. But delighted that you did discuss the Cross on Sunday with the folks at the retreat. My friend was really challenged (as was I the first time I heard your interpretation) to look at the Father in a new and transforming way.
    Blessings, sure wish I had the funds to go back to Israel next year with the group. I’m sure if it becomes a God Journey group it will be hilarious.

  8. the question i have is, “why are christians, through acts of legislation and boycotting, concerned with what they consider the immorality of our society?” this is an honest question. i am not trying to stir controversy… is it about god not blessing or withholding his blessing from our nation?

  9. Hi Wayne! I doubt you remember me, but we met about 3 years ago on one of your trips to NC. I am a long-time listener to The God Journey and love it. When I first started listening I was in the midst of transition from Phariseeism to Living Loved and often commented on various podcasts that challenged the Machiavellian religious world view that was viciously fighting to not let me break free. I rarely leave comments now, as Jesus has and continues to transform me into a lover of the world rather than a hater of anything or anyone not conforming to my idea of “right” or “normal” (which I was taught by systematic religion). That said, being a NC resident, I feel a leading to share just a couple of thoughts for you and your listeners.

    First, let me say that after house bill 2, I am almost embarrassed to tell people I am a native of NC. Prior to HB2 I could throw out some disclaimers about some of the archaic positions of our state, but there is nothing one can say to explain away the blatant discriminatory core of this bill. And you will be surprised to know that my opinion is not on one side or the other regarding the whole trans-gender bathroom issue – it shouldn’t be an issue (I’ll get to that in a minute). No one is talking about the other parts of this bill that make it so bad. There are pieces of this bill making it legal to refuse service to LGBT customers, it limits the ability to sue for discrimination based on race, religion, sex or sexual orientation, and it prohibit municipalities and local governments from raising the minimum wage. So basically, it is a White Male Protestant Aristocracy “keep the peasants under control” bill.

    Now, regarding the bathroom issue, I agree with Brad, and I have serious concerns about my daughter potentially entering a bathroom where a male predator could be waiting. It is rare that I disagree with you Wayne, but I do think that this is plausible. Pedophiles and rapists have a seriously flawed psychiatric profile to start with (I think we can all agree here), and plotting extreme ways to fulfill their loathful and disgusting desires is not unusual. I think it is entirely likely that some deranged mind out there will use this as an opportunity to attack a vulnerable child. BTW, this applies to gym showers too.

    HB2 doesn’t specify a person who has surgically altered their anatomy to appear as the opposite gender. What that means is the law was intended to prevent gay or transgender people from entering public restrooms for the opposite sex. In other words, if I am male but my “gender association” is female, the Charlotte ordinance allowed me to choose to use the toilet for that gender. Here is the mistake. This bill was not intended to protect anyone or provide anything. It was intended to legitimize certain acts of discrimination and to repeal the ordnance passed in Charlotte allowing one to use the toilet consistent with their gender association.

    The fear of sexual assault of a homosexual nature on a child in public restrooms has been a concern for most parents of young boys forever. I think less so for daughters just because female sexual predators are rare. Now the concern for potential assault on a child in public restrooms has taken in the heterosexual nature as well. The difference here is, a man can’t and shouldn’t join his 10 year old daughter to the ladies room, but I can and do join my 5 year old nephew in public men’s rooms, for his protection.

    The law should not be based on gender. To answer Charlotte’s equally ridiculous ordinance, HB2 should have nothing to do with sexual preference or gender association at all. It should have been based on anatomy and written to protect the weak and vulnerable (that’s what laws are supposed to do, right?) If you have male anatomy you use the men’s room. If you have female anatomy, you use the ladies room, regardless of what your birth certificate says. If you follow my daughter into the restroom and you both have the same anatomy, regardless of how deranged you may be, you don’t have the tools needed to sexually assault her in a heterosexual manor. The threat of potential assault of a homosexual nature has not changed.

    Just my thoughts!


  10. Great discussion. Love “the God Journey”! I was surprised though, that in this podcast, the word “Abomination”, and the phrases “social deconstruction”, “moving the boundaries of truth”, “confusion among the younger generation” came up, I guess regarding sexual orientation. But I am regularly floored by Christians that believe that the abomination of homosexuality is so, so much worse than than the abomination of PRIDE in Pro 16:5! And talk about confusion among the younger generation, most young people in the Church I talk to believe that Pride is a virtue, and I’m finding out that their parents do as well.

    ..what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15b

    And this notion that social deconstructionist are dismantling the Biblical Christian foundation laid down by our founding fathers is puzzling to me. Sure, perhaps a much larger percentages of people back in the day would have checked off the little “Christian” box on a survey. But how would that have played out for the Native American, the 17th century Quaker in the MA colony, or the Blacks for the first couple of centuries? I don’t want to go back to those, “good ol days”, cause they weren’t good for a lot of our brethren!

    But guys, I Love you both, and you are largely in uncharted territory so there are going to be some bumps along the way!

  11. Let me start with thank you both for talking about sex! Both…The twists that come through in the brokenness of humanity and ending in a positive view of something made to seem dirty by both religion and our culture!
    I have a seven year old daughter and a thirteen year old son that I protect with my life, yet we welcome broken people into our home because of the incredible love The father has given us for them. I do not see these two things at odds at all . Is there a risk ? Yes there is. Yet being fully aware of this we continue to choose Love Over a false sense of security through isolation from the broken.
    When we take off the labels we put on others , They are simply broken people someone’s son or daughter longing to be loved for who they are …. God loves and accepts them where they are Why can’t we join Him in that space before they are healed? Only when they realize they are loved where they are at in their brokenness, will they be able to embrace The father in a transformative way that leads away from their brokenness .
    The reason I say this is because it is my story … I will not go into details here but growing up I experienced sexual brokenness first hand in a very twisted way, sexual addiction, leading to porn addiction later on in life which almost ended my Marriage… I love how you brought out That our minds can be reset when we walk away from Porn or are healed from the twists in creation We experience ! They truly Can! It was not until love came into my life that those things became untwisted. I couldn’t even talk about it without being completely overcome with shame! In my teens I would have killed myself had my secrets come to light. I don’t know the exact date or time These things were set right in me but it was most definitely a byproduct Of going on a journey to find out Who this God of the universe is? Then coming to know how deeply loved I am by Him … Then finding out I was just as deeply loved even at my most broken. It seemed to simply disarm What was attractive and allow me to see it as distasteful and Harmful to me and those I love as it is. Then I no longer was even tempted by it. The life I enjoy now free from these twists in my Nature Is far better Than I ever imagined it could be, even on my worst day!
    My base line when all expectations and outcomes and people have failed my hopes is. If I was loved there….”I am still Loved here”! and nothing life or others throw my way can take that away!
    Thank you both for continuing to sling freedom!
    It is like a cold breeze on a hot day.

  12. This discussion has pretty much played out but I wanted to add maybe a slightly different perspective on the subject. I take solace in knowing that no one may read this comment therefore allowing me to feel I have contributed while not causing contention among brothers and sisters:)
    I’ve learned to trust Wayne’s opinion on many subjects and he has stretched me into new and better places in my ability to love those around me and not get caught up in the religiosity of things. I have to say when I first listened to this discussion something did not settle inside of me. I think the thing that I am struggling with most is the almost flippant dismissal of the underlying “rightness” of men using women’s restrooms and vice versa. Have we reached a point where we’re willing to compromise what we know is right to accommodate those that need help? Things go on in women’s facilities that should be private and why would we suggest it is OK to introduce a man into that situation. Where is our concern for our womenfolk? Sorry but I’m not OK with a dude going in there. Does that make me insensitive to the struggles of a transgender person? Of course not!
    We can slice this up a lot of different ways but it’s just wrong. I feel there’s an important balance between maintaining our views of what is right and being willing to stand up for those beliefs while still having compassion for those that are struggling with huge challenges in their own lives. This discussion just felt like Wayne was dismissing any concern about this weird situation. I know he didn’t say this but it felt like he was suggesting we aren’t compassionate if we have a problem with this. With that said, I don’t think that is what he meant and I do trust that Wayne really has a deep love and concern for folks with this challenge.
    Is making provisions for someone’s unnatural tendency truly love or are we simply being enablers? Why can’t we draw clear lines as a society without being called bigots? I get the whole evangelistic kingdom on earth, impose our will on society crap. But that’s not where many of us are at. Are we adjusting our tolerance for things that are clearly wrong because of pressure to be politically correct?

    • A thank you for sharing your thoughts Scott. I have also come to understand God’s church and love for others where they are and have shared his podcasts many times.
      I struggled tremendously also with what seemed disregard for my feelings as a woman and my rights to privacy and protection seemed unimportant.
      I also don’t think the issue is anymore than a desire to be legitimized which I can never give based on supposed gender, but only on the basis as a loved human being made in God’s likeness. If the issue is truly bathroom comfort then let’s just make them all private family bathrooms and end the discussion.

      I found myself much in agreement
      with Brad’s thoughts about people’s reactions.
      A leading former head of psychiatrist at John Hopkins who has treated transgendered people for 40 years points out that this is a brain dysphoria much like an aneorexic who sees themselves fat. While I would never mistreat the person with the dysfunction to say I should feel comfortable with their known presence in a ladies room is to participate in their the lie their brain is telling them. And while there may be laws to prosecute men who would falsely pretend to identify as female why give them easy access to anyone?

      Wayne expressed he thought people were just pushing this issue out of concern for suicide prevention. The same former John Hopkins Psychiatrist points out that Sweden has had a very open and liberal policy towards transgender individuals and they have a high suicide rate there.
      So by ignoring the truth we may not be helping anyone. ( Dr. John McHugh..Article may be found on Witherspoon Institute)

  13. This is the first The God Journey podcast I listened to. (Don’t judge, I just found it on Google play and was the earliest I could find).
    I am both a woman and a teenager and I just want to say:
    I live in Texas, and if they ever made it legal for everyone to go into whichever bathroom they wanted, I would not use the bathrooms. I understand where you’re coming from with the loving people and I agree that we should always show God’s love to people as the light of the world. However, there are some men (and in schools, boys) who would go into the women’s bathroom. I’m not talking about people who don’t understand which gender they belong to, but other people who are confused and messed up in other ways and would love to take advantage of women. I don’t think that we should be making it easier for them. Maybe we should have extra bathrooms for people who are confused. I feel like everyone should be able to feel safe using the bathroom.
    The other thing is that one of you said that they (transgender people) had no choice and compared it to autism. I just have to say, that’s wrong. We should love these peopll and they may not have a choice now, but they definitely had a choice. They chose to say in their hearts, “God you made a mistake and put me in the wrong body”. So, in defiance of God’s judgement, they “corrected” Him. That was absolutely a choice. Autistic people were born with Autism. They truly did not have a choice. Autism, I believe, is a blessing from God. While Autistic people may be unable to live exactly like us, they have other gifts that we sometimes cannot see.
    As a teenager, I will tell you that the younger generation is most certainly confused and it does have to do with things like this. I’m not saying that teens would have a perfect picture of adult life without these issues, but it would certainly help the overall group of teens if this perversion was not fed to us 24/7. It would also help if people spoke to us instead of about us and gave us a little respect.

    • Kate, well said. I hear God’s Spirit in your words, and welcome to The God Journey.

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