Doctrine, Truth and Love

Why was it true in Jesus' day that those most familiar with the Scriptures were least able to recognize God himself when he stood right in front of them? Is the same still true today? A recent conversation Wayne had gives he and Brad the opportunity to discuss doctrinal conflicts, how to help people open to truth instead of declaring a doctrinal war that destroys any hope of growth. And why is it that people most committed to their doctrine, seem to be least transformed by the power of Christ's love?


  1. How true it is that people have to make you a follower of Satan if you disagree with them. A man from a church that I used to attend sent me the following note (after I had stopped attending a “sunday morning event” ) explaining that I had been erased from being able to minister to others and that my heart was now goverened by Satan:

    “It’s scary how effective some cults are in “picking off” tired, hurting, exhuasted or discontented believers. Wounded saints don’t see the red flags of delusion propogated by false teachers. It sounds good and relieving to “find out” the pastor of your Bible believing church is a power monger out to dominate your life and that it wasn’t your sin or confusion causing the problems. My heart breaks for believers caught up in these lies. Your ability to minister to lost souls is erased because of Satan’s deception governing your heart disguised as “revelation”. I pray your life “in Christ” will return to the Truth.”

  2. I have been kicking around in my own head the term “the arrogance of certainty”. I have a good friend (we can and do lovingly disagree which is cool) who has stated that ultimately everything in the bible is understandable by us because otherwise God wouldn’t have put it there. Maybe that’s true but It seems to me that at least from a practical day to day getting through life, Paul’s admonishment that we only see things darkly should be the guiding principle. The need to have the definitive answer to every passage seems to make people both arrogant and anxiety filled. Which is perhaps why the saying “Those that know it the least know it the loudest”. If I have to know with certainty what everything in the bible really means (not just the overall story but every specifc passage) then what pressure! I have to be right and anyone who “undermines” my certainty is a threat.
    I’m also thinking that Father perhaps has left enough “unclear” in His revelation to prevent us from replacing Him with the bible. That does sound crazy, but isn’t that part of what the Pharisees did?
    “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life” John 5:39 I love the Bible and try never to be without mine, but I crave relationship with the Trinity of Papa not the book about Him. And since He is infinite and I’m not, I don’t think I’ll comprehend everything even in the next life (nothing left to learn wouldn’t that be a drag anyway). Blessings

  3. My fellow dudes! Your dialogue resonated BIG TIME with me today. I was encouraged early on, when you talked about your (Wayne’s) 2 year process of getting to the place to where it wasn’t important what other peoples’ opinions of you were!!! Loved that! I’ve been in that process, and let me tell you, it can be one more “butt kickin” and painful process! But it is SO worth the pain, when you begin to experience the freedom and peace that comes with NOT HAVING to live to please others or be “right” all the time! Through my process, I’ve seen just how BIG of a motivation other people’s approval of me has been in so many of the decisions I’ve made, and ways I’ve lived my life. I’ve also discovered this, you can’t truly love people as long as you’re controlled by their opinions of you or your desire to be validated and approved by them.
    Thanks for, yet again, speaking encouragement and “love wrapped” truth to all of us fellow “journeymen and journeywomen”. You guys rock!

  4. Doug,

    Loved your thoughts. But I think I would say it this way, “the arrogance of expressing certainty.” On some significant things, certainty is very helpful. Jesus was the most certain person that ever lived, but he didn’t express that in ways that would drive others into the darkness. In fact, in most of his engagements with people he was asking them questions and making observations that could have opened the door to discovery if they wanted it to.

    DaRon, you rock too!


  5. Wayne,

    Thanks, yes the certainty of Father’s love even in the valley of the shadow, for example.

  6. I also resonated with the message of this podcast – I have so struggled with allowing what others think of me to affect how I think God must think of me. In reference to Doug’s comment that “Those that know it the least know it the loudest”, I have come to realize that the tipped cow moos the loudest.

  7. There was about 50 different things said that I just don’t have the time to address all of them so suffice it to say that this whole 35 minutes sounded to me like a couple of guys that have created a god in their own image and imagination rather than looking to the infallible, inerrant Word of God to see the God that really exists. If “doctrine” isn’t a vital part of a Believer’s life, then Paul should have saved his ink for much of what he wrote! “Doctrine” was a major part of much, if not most, of Paul’s epistles. And since he wrote most of the NT, my guess is that God thinks it’s pretty part too.
    Love without Truth is simply not love but the opposite. It is deception, which is a lie, which is from the Enemy. The conversation during these 35 minutes sounds to me very much like what consists in the “Easy-Believism” that is so popular today – which is leading more people to Hell than perhaps anything else.
    I’m not advocating being disrespectful or rude to anyone – let alone another Brother or Sister. However, with all the false teachers and apostasy that exists under the cloak of “Christianity” today, it is imperative that the Truth be put forth as often as possible. There are far too many people who are giving Truth the “sniff test” and saying “this don’t smell like The Father” because they have created a false “Father” in their mind that represents their image of God created in their own mind and not that of the Bible.
    Jesus said he is THE way, THE Truth, and THE life. If doctrinal truth isn’t important, then just how important is Jesus really? It sounds to me like it’s not as important as the warm fuzzy “love” that you create in your own mind. I would love to have that discussion with you because I’ve been told more times than I can count “I love you” by people who don’t have the first clue what Biblical love really is. All I can tell you is that it ain’t what most people – and that includes Christians – think it is.

  8. I forgot to add, Jude tells us that we are to “earnestly content” for the truth. Not make light of it.

  9. Royce,

    Thank you for your thoughts and participation in the discussion. Much of what you’ve said here I can relate with, for I’ve used some of those same exact words and arguments in the past.

    I don’t write to debate, as I don’t think it’s productive, but simply to attempt to clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding. I listened to the podcast a few days ago so forgive me if I’ve missed something. I didn’t hear any disagreements with truth itself but more so with many who are such sticklers for truth yet don’t display much love. I think doctrine in and of itself is not a bad thing at all. Our love for God will naturally bring us to a place where we desire to go “deeper” into His mysteries. What I seem to notice, and have experience in myself, is that it is very easy to skip over the relationship with God and begin a relationship with truth. In other words, doctrine can easily become an idol and become more important than the living Word Himself.

    It seems to me that the natural fruit of genuinely knowing God in a relationship, and living in His truth, will produce love- both for Him and others. So to fight for “truth” and display little love seems to be contradictory of the very truth that is being fought for. After all, truth should be liberating and not enslaving.

    Concerning what love really is: I don’t think there is anyone here calling it a warm and fuzzy feeling. I think Scripture is clear about what love really is. I think Scripture is also clear that Christianity is not a book religion but a relationship. While the book is infallible and inerrant it is meant to bring us to Him. What I hear Wayne and Brad talking about are those that exalt the book, without displaying the fruits that a relationship with God should bring forth, and perhaps losing sight of that relationship in the context of a doctrine war. Very similar to the Pharisees.

    Though I too see dimly, I hope this provides some clarification and I apologize ahead of time if I too have arrived at conclusions that are not correct. I appreciate your zeal and desire to stand for the truth, however, I’m not entirely sure that what you think was being said was actually said.

    In Peace,


  10. If we think that love is easy or fuzzy then perhaps we have confused the current culture’s view of love as something to make us feel good with what the Bible calls love. Real love, sacrifical love that aims at the best of another is never easy and when it comes to people that have hurt us I would say impossible without living in close relationship with He who is love. Jesus said on that kind of love hangs everything.

    The Bible says that God is love, I believe that is the Truth to which Brad and Wayne are continually trying to point people (my apologies for speaking for you). I suppose from one podcast their position on orthodoxy (right thinking) could be misunderstood, but they seem pretty solid in their theology when you dig a little deeper. Blessings

  11. I loved your chat today.


    Something I always keep in mind – I can’t argue anyone to Christ, I can only love them to Christ.

  12. If people can’t wrap their mind around grace…..good luck with truth

    I got into a lengthy ‘debate’ recently. My point was that some may speak truth, but still be against God (and his people). I used Balaam as my example and how we are to not tolerate those that are like Balaam; as written of in Revelation. After my statement I was told that truth is truth (as in if Satan says truth, well it’s still truth) and that set me off a little bit (OK a lot). I went on a novel like diatribe of how to know truth, test the spirits and that The Holy Spirit is needed along side truth.

    What I said was factual, but obviously not beneficial. They finally used a single verse out of context against my formal argument (OK novel) before I surrendered. I was sad/mad for a week (still a little flustered).

    Thanks guys for helping me to realize I need to think slower, love more and mind my line of reason closely. Although I may have been completely right, it perhaps was a lost cause. If I already knew what to expect, why did I get into it? I have to hope it served some purpose, after all, God chose a stiff-necked crew to bring his salvation.


    PS God calls us to love like he loves, I was just trying to make sure I wasn’t loving stupid people – But in the end…..I guess I love stupid people…..peace

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