The Simplicity of a Loving Life

Brad is back in the podcast studio as he and Wayne sort through the last few weeks of not seeing each other and catch up a bit on Wayne's trip to New Zealand. Sorting through the mail bag and blog posts they read one of the best blog posts ever, and then find themselves talking about living in fullness by loving and cherishing what God puts before us each day. Find out what VPD is and how not to not only avoid it, but also avoid passing it on to others. They end up in discussing the freedom of love between spouses, and the pressure many feel to get their spouse on their journey, and how backwards that way of thinking really is. There are still so many holdovers of history among people of faith that truly relegate women to second-class status. A TIME Magazine article reminds us how culture was designed to lord over women as a way of limiting their freedoms and choices in the world. Thank God for freedom!

Podcast Links:
Time Magazine article on Women, Money and Power.
Great Joy in Kenya
Wayne's resources available in Australia at


  1. Thought of this quote – which is taken from a quote blasting Mother Teresa, but I loved the last part…

    …the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.” Christopher Hitchens

  2. This podcast was both (enjoyable) and [torturous].

    (Brad back on the God Journey.)

    [Listening to you guys eat Sara’s Chocolate Chip Cookies.]

  3. Just listening to the portion about “how do I get my wife onto my journey?” and at the moment I am at this point with my daughter. I have been trying to drag her into my journey instead of coming along side her with her journey. Why is it so much harder to do this our children? For years my husband was not on the same page as me and I was fine with it, never pressured him or try to drag him to where I was. But with my daughter (who is 15), I am having trouble just letting go and coming along side her. Has anyone else struggled with this with their kids?

  4. Thanks for the insights. While I am not a husband that insists that my wife of 26 years get on my journey, I have never thought of how I can get on her’s. To champion each other? (as was said a few podcasts ago) “thud”, what kind of dork does not want to encourage his wife’s journey? This kind of dork! Man do we have some things to talk about this weekend. Thanks guys…Oh, can you add “podcast-smells” so I can share those cookies:)

  5. Really enjoyed the podcast, great advice, great memories, learning to relax 🙂

  6. I have only been listening to your podcast for about 2 months and have been so thankful for it. I liked your comments about women and religion on this one. I am currently feeling trapped at my church because my husband is the pastor’s son and we can not leave (not that my husband would ever want to) because of how that would obviously be very hard on virtually all my close relationships. My husband has gently asked me to keep attending for the sake of our elementary aged kids….he says I need to be a good example for them. I would rather have my children under teaching that is not so “angry God” as it is at our church. I grew up in the church and have only recently been able to feel that God just might love me and not be out to get me and make my life miserable for all the sins I have committed over a life-time of knowing better. I realized not too long ago that I have been spiritually abused in my past and now I have been letting God in his love help me to forgive. I don’t want my kids to go through this and with the teaching they are getting now at our church, I just really don’t know how I can prevent it. I have been told by older women in the church that I need to honor my husband’s request. Currently, I go to church but I have to grit my teeth and just bear it. I volunteer in the nursery, in the kitchen, or wherever so I don’t have to sit through another guilt-producing sermon about God’s wrath. Thankfully, God is letting me get to know the real him…the one who loves me no matter what I do, the one who is cheering for me, the one who has really forgiven me for my past mistakes and doesn’t keep bringing them up. I can feel his love for me now a lot of the time, but when I go to church it’s like it’s being snatched away. What should a wife in my situation do? I have recently discovered one other wife in my church that is in a very similar spot. She handles it by going shopping instead of going to the Sunday service. I told my husband (tongue in cheek) that I should go with her and we can have our own “service” while bonding over great deals in the shoe aisle. He didn’t agree. 🙂 Even though I’ve been trained my whole life to be a sweet quiet Christian girl, I do have my own thoughts and opinions about faith, religion, and Christianity. Those are not encouraged, however, and my contributions to the body of Christ are limited to children’s Sunday school classes and potlucks. I think a little bit of feminism creeping in might not be a bad thing, but it would be instantly deemed a “Jezebel spirit” and cast out in the name of Jesus.

  7. Hi guys! I have enjoyed learning to live loved again through this podcast and other things on Life Streams website. My husband and I are on journeys that not long ago took us through some hurt and betrayal from those of our “church” family. We were some of the oddballs of the “members” and I believe we were living loved in the midst of the organization. I feel that is one of the reasons that we were pushed out, they didn’t know how to deal with us. We are now in recovery. Right now I feel that my journey is bringing me to a crossroads of letting go of the traditional ideas of what a wife is expected to do and learning what a true marriage and partnership is. I appreciate what you have brought up, but I have heard in this podcast and other podcasts where Wayne has said and maybe Brad has too, that if the Holy Spirit tugs at you to run the vaccum then you should do that. I agree wholeheartedly, but when you say it is to “help” your wife, I hesitate. I think, is housework only the woman’s “job” or should it be a combined effort of the family, including the husband? I have never felt it should just be the wife’s responsibility, but because it was expected of me I did it. Then of course as the children got older they were assigned “chores”. A couple of years ago, maybe after some nagging :(, my husband started becoming a part of the routine. We have been married 20 years. So I guess what I am asking is; biblically is it the woman’s responsibility?
    Also on this podcast, you brought up the idea of the man believing that his dream should become the woman’s dream after we are married or something like that. That is exactly what happened in our marriage and as a wounded woman (I was sexually abused when I was 9, date raped at age 17, very promiscuous, and chose to abort my first child when I was 21) I couldn’t believe someone would want to marry me, so at age 30 I was a willing participant in putting my dream or journey aside and jump right in the middle of his. It wasn’t until I was 40 that I walked through my past with the Father at my side and as we walked he healed me. These last 10 years have been an incredible journey of learning to be loved by Love himself. Not that he didn’t love me before, but I received it through filters of hurt, kind of like seeing the world with sunglasses on. Recently I feel that father has been nudging me to take another step out of my husbands journey and into my own. I don’t know right now where this step will lead me, but I know that my husband will be supportive, Father is nudging him too. We had a conversation the other day about this and I explained what I had heard and read on this website and then I posed my question to him; Do you want our daughter to be able to live what God has planned for her or should she have to give it up to follow her husbands path? That led into a conversation about his and my journeys. I thank you both for listening and sharing what God has led you through.

  8. Wayne & Brad, Thanks for sharing your cookies!
    I would like to share a couple of observations from someone who has come through a spiritual transformation out of religion and into a vibrant relationship with all three persons of our God. I don’t think we can make the blanket statement that men should always come along side their wives in their journey, where ever that may be, and just love them there (or try to love what they love). I think suggestions to men that may be struggling here might begin by first delineating where the man is on his journey, and to comprehend some of the psychological complexities that may accompany that place for him. For me personally, coming out of religion was a place of great uncertainty and lots of separation anxiety. If the husband is very new to this journey and his wife is still very steeped in religion and all the bondage and shame that goes with that, I think it would be pragmatically dysfunctional for the husband to “come along side” his wife here. More than likely, he would get sucked back into religion. This is not to say that even in this situation Holy Spirit couldn’t still work in his life to lead him further down this journey, but it would probably cause even greater inner conflict and confusion for the husband. I think here we forget that Holy Spirit is not only working in the husband’s life but in the wife’s as well. Here I would say, “but-out and let God handle this one”. Stop trying to figure out what you should do OR what she should do, just listen to God and only do what he tells you to do and only go where he tells you to go. Lastly, for the person who is well along this journey and has settled into a comfortable and pleasant “one-on-one” relationship with God (or should I say “one-on-three” ;-), you guys are spot-on to recommend coming along side your wife, whereever she is and just love her there.

    Now, lets not forget how convincing, eloquent and charismatic religious leaders can be, so regardless of where one is on this journey, it is always important to not be deceived back into the shame of religion by balancing whatever is heard against “is this consistent with what i know of the essence and character of Christ?” If it is fine. If it’s not, just let it go. (WARNING: If you feel compelled to prove to them that you are right and they are wrong – its probably your ego and NOT God!)
    Thanks again guys!

  9. Thanks for your comments, Cliff. Just to clarify, however, I don’t think coming alongside your spouse’s journey means you go where she goes and does what she does. It just means you’re talking with her about the things that are important to her and not trying to sit back and wait for her to jump on your journey. In a healthy relationship both partners are seeking to stay in touch with the other’s journey as a matter of importance. It doesn’t mean you have to agree, go the same places or do the same things. It just means you care enough to keep communicating and respecting each other’s perspective as God continues to shape both of you…

  10. It’s the opposite for my husband and I. Our journeys are not on the same page at all and though he’s come a ways,..we’ve recently left the church we have been at for four years, for many reasons but mostly because my husband felt betrayed after something happened. I had been wanting to leave almost immediately after we started attending. But I felt I should go until he wanted to leave, which I thought wouldn’t happened, at least not for a very long time.
    So now we’re really out and not “DOING” anything which I LOVE, and we’re not seeking anything to replace, 🙂 But I still feel my husband is still encased in alot of religious thinking and when I talking about my journey, and I’m excited about something and sharing it with him he thinks I’m preaching at him. I’ve explained to him that I’m only talking like that because I’m passionate about it, I don’t mean to sound preachy, but when i’m passionate about something no matter what it is, I get on a soapbox a little bit I guess. I try to tone it done,..but now that I know this it’s almost easier to not share any of that with him because he seems totally not understand most of it, thinks I’m preaching again,..and musters something like “..We’re totally not on the same page,..I don’t have the relationship with Him you do…” then he gets down on himself and I feel bad and just stop talking about it. I really wish this could change,..I want him to be a part of my journey,…this is the one big thorn in our relationship…
    HELP,,…? Advice…?

  11. Truly enjoyed the podcast and all the recent growth and transitions relating to the God Journey. Change truly is the only constant.
    The whole “coming along side” does touch into nearly all our authentic relationships in one way or another. I love the focused aspect of the husband/wife relationship. It is the prime workshop of love and Father’s laboratory for genuine body life. I loved the various interactions of the blog and all the folks comments. Helps sort out ones own thoughts.
    I use to walk in a nearly unknown expectation that my wife would join me in my journey, along the lines of my directives from Father. What has been painful is how deeply rooted the assumption was. I’m not sure of any of the effects upon my wife’s journey for she has pretty much been herself in all the varieties and seasons of our journey/s over the past 42 years. Ours together and our unique relationships with Father. She certainly has her own with Poppa. It was painful for me because it is never pleasant to awaken and realize how wayward ones own heart can become with, so called, “righteous” goals or aspirations. Also painful to become aware of possible missed opportunities of enjoying HER for herself while ignorantly waiting for some “idea” of ministry to come into fruition and thus more fulfilling days.
    Yikes… the awakening can be painful, depending upon the level of ‘self’ invested or how deeply pride supports religious ideas. But, in the larger picture of Father’s unfailing love, it is brief, like a birthing process and coming out of the realms of religious assumptions and pious expectations into simple fresh air is quite exhilarating in the Spirit and refreshing to a weary soul. I walk these days in the ever growing reality of my Father’s love as well as the hope He has opened in me for more years of discovery and love of this precious lady He so graciously granted me to walk with and be my friend.
    THANK You, Lord for Your extraordinary watch care over our souls. Thanks to you brothers for flinging freedom all over the place. Blessings to all of you.

  12. Thank you Thank you Thank you for talking about this topic. You were able to articulate things I have yet to be able to put into words. The longer I am out of the traditional church, the more feminist I become.

    On another note, the quote about religion and jumping through hoops came from my son’s blog, Auditing the Catching of Babies. But I warn you it is raw, unvarnished rhetoric from a 15 year old boy. Not for the faint of heart.

  13. Thanks, Cliff, for what you shared.
    I have a favorite song (by Annie Herring) that says: “It is the journey that we walk in, that makes us more like “us” or more like Him.” God spoke that line very clearly to my heart once when I was struggling about my husband’s journey. One can feel like a victim of their spouse’s walk, when truly, such is not the case. The journey that I walk in is what determines who I end up like, AND THE SAME IS TRUE FOR MY SPOUSE.
    I also read recently that “Powerlessness is always the message the enemy sends fear to bring.” I find this to be true. (I have not given you the spirit of fear, but of power, of love and of a sound mind.)
    I am learning to let go and trust a truly able God with my husband’s journey (or lack of one). The most recent thing God has spoken to my heart (believe it or not, through a dream) is simply this.
    The message in these two words to me, is huge, when you take time to ponder it. First of all, Love dis-arms me. There is trickle down effect, but the most amazing thing is the freeing that goes on in my own heart. I was tickled to read the Webster’s dictionary definition of “dis-arm”.
    1. to deprive of a weapon or weapons 2. to remove the fuse or other actuating device 3. to deprive of the means of attack or defense 4. to relieve of hostility, suspicion, etc. win the affection or approval of; charm 5. to lay down ones weapons
    Can we trust God/Love to do His thing? I say we can. And please, let’s keep Him alone as the solution.

  14. Enjoyed the podcast as always. Have a question for you. We listen to your podcast as a refreshing get away, and encouragement on the journey. Would you consider sharing what podcasts you guys enjoy or might listen to as your get away?

  15. “we become bored when we lose our fascination for what or who God has placed around us” This was a thought provoking statement for me. I am parenting teenagers now, but I still thank God for babies – especially about 1 year old. They teach me how to be engaged in the moment. I love watching them. It’s free entertainment. They are just so totally into whatever is around them, and entranced with it all. And when they have just learned to walk – they are just so pleased with themselves – something we take for granted but to them – it’s like they have just won the Olympics. Sand, dirt, leaves, ants or a dead fly everything around them is a wonder to them. And I get a renewed sense of the miracle that is life on this planet by just watching them.

  16. This was a real challenge to me come along-side my husband. I am so not interested in the things he is passionate about. I encourage him to talk to his mates, write his blog, publish his thoughts… but I don’t want to hear about it. 37 years of the same stuff and I am over it! Yet he encourages me in my interests.

    I am praying god will give me a new appreciation for him and his journey… don’t have to be on it with him but need to come alongside to encourage him.

    Thanks guys

  17. This is my second listening to this podcast and I resonate so much with the discussion about the spiritual journey. I know that there is such value in having a shared journey; however, I can’t/won’t wait for my husband to be where I am on my journey and vice versa. I trust that Papa will take him where he needs to be. Yes, I love the times and places when we ‘merge’ spiritually, but I don’t try to make them happen.

    As far as church goes, it’s been my experience that it’s a boys club complete with the clubhouse and the sign that reads ‘no girls allowed’. I don’t even try anymore because I don’t have a voice there.

    And about BPD, this is the abbreviation for borderline personality disorder. It can be the abbreviation for a lot of things, but that’s the first thing that came to mind. I guess it applies with the church and their performance rut too.

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