Learning Love More Deeply

This past summer was a strange one for Wayne and Sara as God set about to do a deeper work of healing in both of them and through that process connect them more deeply than they've ever known. After thirty-seven years of marriage, they were caught by surprise and challenged at the very core of their marriage, but the came out with not only a greater connection to each other, but also a greater understanding of what love is. Sara joins Wayne in this podcast for an intimate look at the process of healing they are still going through and how it is changing both of them. They are discovering how much marriage is not just a commitment to be life-long partner; it is also the place where God deals with our selfishness as he teaches us what it truly means to love another human being.

Podcast Links:
Wayne's Blog in the Aftermath of this part of their journey, Into Ever Deepening Realities of Love
Dr. Brené Brown's video The Power of Vulnerability
Dr. Brené Brown's video Listening to Shame
Dr. Brené Brown's book, The Gifts of Imperfection
Thanks to your generosity, we've been able to buy new clothes for the children at the orphanage in Kenya. You can see pictures here!


  1. Hi Wayne (and Sara)…thanks for sharing some of your journey so openly. I live all the way in Canada and met Wayne very briefly during your visit here in September. I’m seeing that when our hunger for relationship and the pain we’re in leads us to almost desperately (emotionally)grab on to other humans…Father has a way of gently reminding us that He is the one who’ll walk us through what needs to be walked through. I’m struck by similarities in Sarah’s family dynamics and mine and it’s encouraging as God is surfacing some of my own coping mechanisms to see that as He’s walked w/ Sarah….He’ll walk with me and let me know and see what I need to see. Also after hearing you share your story I’m more aware of the patience of God and how His timing is done in a way that is mysterious. This allows me to “exhale” even when there are outstanding issues still not resolved and still causing painful confusion. Your story encourages others. Blessings, Sue

  2. Wow, thanks for sharing, you two. I know this was difficult for you both, particularly you, Sara. Father’s blessings on you both as you continue your journey in Him together.

  3. Thirty years and still growing together–As a couple, we joke sometimes at the idyllic childhood my husband had! His mom and dad were the Cleavers! Compared to him, my emotional baggage looked liked steamer trucks compared to his carryon. But God has been faithful to show us how to love each other best. It hasn’t always been easy. But it does seem that with each level of breakthrough, our trust in Him as the cement in the relationship grows. We walk on more solid ground with each other. This is sometimes hard to explain to someone who has only been married a short time and has not yet been rubbed raw and exposed and healed! We have trees on our little place here that sprout up side by side, but over time the trunks seem to grow together. At some point, God determines that the two really shall be one! Loved that you shared this with us. Sweet testimony of your love for each other and God!

  4. Thank you. A simple two word sentence but profound in the gratitude it carries. “That you were willing to jump into my pain”. The way you are choosing to love Sarah, I am in awe. How magnificent and you are making it real. “you put your life into my life”. Gosh I am partly not making any sense but this has been an incredibly profound podcast. Thank you! You have given me hope.

  5. Wayne and Sara thank you so much for your openness and vulnerability in sharing what God is now unfolding in your lives. This has really blessed me and in many ways I can relate to what Sara is going through right now. It is beautiful how God continues to work in us to set us free from unhelpful stuff in our lives, even if it’s been there a very long time. I love your openness and honesty and also that you respect who Sara is and what she does and doesn’t want to do. Wonderful stuff!

  6. Thank you for sharing openly and honestly. As Michelle said it gave me hope. And I wept. It was actually a very healing thing that happened in me as I listened to your sharing. God bless your journey.

  7. Honestly, Sara and I were concerned that perhaps our sharing was a bit more of a peek behind our lives than people wanted or would feel comfortable with. The comments and emails we have received today from so many of you have set our hearts at rest with letting this be public. I’m blessed that it has encouraged so many and if it leads to couples having better dialog about their own life together and finding ways to give their life up for the other together, we will be incredible grateful. Thanks for sharing, all of you! It has touched us deeply.

  8. Wow! Thank you, both! Just melting as this speaks, encourages and affirms, it makes what is inside standup and take notice (the pain and desire). They call for a Father, Redeemer and Healer!

  9. Have just listened to it a second time as it touched me so deeply. I am not married…. but since Father loves all his children there must be a way for all of us to learn to love and be loved more deeply, even if there are no human arms to hold us during the night…
    Wayne, I’d like to listen to the song but did not catch the name or title precisely enough to find it on iTunes
    Greetings from Switzerland
    Ana Figueira

  10. Am I the only one having trouble hearing the podcast. The last three podcasts have had one person almost inaudible. First it was the guest, then the second two times it was Wayne. Did Brad do the recording in the past and now it suffers from his absence? Is there only one microphone? Do you need someone to remix and amplify inaudilble portions? Content is always great, but the struggle to hear makes it almost not worth the effort.

  11. Wayne and Sara, thanks so much for sharing your story. Precious.

    Alex, it depends on your speaker system. I listen using my iTouch after downloading the podcast. I have two listening options:  Logitech (just) speakers or a small Sony iPod listening station. If I listen via Logitech, one voice comes through the left speaker and the other voice through the right. If I use the Sony station, both voices are heard through the stations speakers without the left-right distinction.  Hope this helps sort out your situation.  🙂

  12. Alex, I suspect one of the channels on your stereo either isn’t working or is turned down way too low. The podcasts are being recorded in the same way, but the last three were not mixed down to mono before we built the final file, so one voice is on the left channel and the other is on the right. That’s my bad! I missed a step in the production (way too busy here!) of these and have since fixed it on this one and will be fixing it on the previous two. I apologize for the inconvenience. I’m glad you said something, or I would not have known.

  13. Wow….what a powerful story. Thanks for sharing. It is amazing what can happen when we partner with God and our mates or best friends. Thank you for your honesty……a rare gem in this day and age. I think most people can|t handle the truth as the saying goes. or so we think.

  14. This was the best podcast ever! It touched me so deeply. I can relate so much to Sara. Thanks guys for doing this.

  15. Yes, thanks for being vulnerable. How many times have I heard so-called “Marriage Building” talks where it seemed like the couple talking were perfect and had it all together. Oh sure, they had their disagreements over serious stuff like the toothpaste top and the toilet lid (to which the crowd all gave a knowing smile and chuckle… ha ha… BAH HUMBUG!). This may be the first on this topic where the couple have heavy-duty issues that threaten the very foundation of their marriage.

    My big take-away here was how…impossible it all seems. This must really be a kind of modern miracle of love and trust. I can’t imagine having the courage to love in this way with my spouse. When the tempests come I find a place to hide and wait for the storm to pass. But maybe this is not the best (or healthiest) way to deal with it. Even so, I feel helpless to do anything else. Yes, God can and does change us, but it seems to take so long and in the meantime I fear that I will commit an Epic Stupid in my desperation to find a sympathetic shoulder. If only we could have a sneak preview at how God has worked for the good in the future so I could hang in there. “See, it will be alright.” I can see Jesus standing up in the storm-tossed boat saying gently, “Do you still have so little faith in me?” Um. Sorry, Jesus. Yeah, this storm is pretty much freaking me out right now.

  16. sara,

    your love for wayne is evident throughout your story. thank you for sharing.

    as my wife, tina, and i listened to your podcast this past sunday morning, i was reminded of how supportive she has been of my vocational aspirations – she raised our three children (homeschooling them during the early years), walked alongside us within ministry opportunities, stopped to encourage my insecurities or challenge difficult decisions, temporarily left family and old friends; found new community, and now…

    we are learning to rest in the love of Father.

    tina and i appreciate your’s and wayne’s ministry. it has opened our eyes to the reality of who God is, and who we are in his sight. this is revolutionizing our marriage and the meaning of ministry.

    your brother and sister in Christ,

    dewayne & tina moore

  17. Thank you SO much for sharing such a personal story. It touched my heart. I so appreciate you & am praying for you both!

  18. This is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!! Thank you both for sharing this with all of us..Listening to this gave me such a clear picture of what kind of God we have! It is AMAZING to see what great lengths He will go to,to show us how loved we are!

  19. Sara,
    Thank you for sharing. The last six months have been life changing for me as I dig until the information that Brene shares in her books. A light has gone on for me.
    I’m thankful for you and Wayne and all that the Lord has done through and in you both. I had a similar experience after going through an extrememly difficult time leaving a church we loved.

    The podcasts have been a gift to me, I usually listen on while running.
    Glad I was home on my treadmill for this one…I found myself in tears a few times.

    I have been anxiously awaiting a glimpse into what God is doing in your life Sara. Thank you for being so brave and sharing it with us and glad that you recognize what IS and IS NOT your calling. You are uniquely created by God and I love how you are finding YOU through Him.

    Grateful for you both.

  20. Hey Wayne, hey Sara,

    Just a brief one i knooooowwww Sara isn’t one to flood the public grounds, i was actually restleing with myself to abide by wayne AND you sara to respect your privacy …… but my heart called to this matter, i couldnt help myself ….please understand this is no disrespect .
    your words are encouraging and most defently sounds like our father has taught you well as that never fails… i would like to return the encouragement. I admire the brave and exposed attitude as i have had similar encounters….. my heart immediatley shot an arrow toward you sara when you were talking about how you were the stupid one and just one that is hung out to dry but i heard and understood your pain your not alone 🙂 <<<< geuss what!! i had the same coping tactic as you did. I just served others as i would god. Deep down i knew to follow this way of reacting towards these issues <<<< this i believe is no tactic or mechanism you knew deep in your heart you wernt one to snap at someone you love them no matter what they did. You wernt selfish in anyway. it doesnt have to be like that anymore it was gods way of saying im with you coz if you didnt have that coping mechanism how would you have gotten through it. all that has to change is your mental about it. I no longer have to do this to cope coz god is with me, Jesus turn the other cheek to cop another blow just as you did in this situation . this i believe is our way to turn the other cheek this is as pure as it gets to serve god i think something that you can take away from that experience if you havnt already is too know what you were doing was listening to god it took me a bit to find out myself is this a reaction in the flesh to just cop it and take the pain with no faith and suffer pain of not feeling/being loved, or have faith and take the pain and know you are loved BIIIGGG difference i think. Keep hearing God sara i am praying for you if not praying you are in my thoughts and conversations with god.

    I hope i didnt sound like i was carrying on i tend to do that sometimes. I need to learn to control my enthusiasm haha

    with love


  21. Thanks for sharing here… especially to Sara…to be willing to step out of your comfort zone…I “get” so much of what you share…knowing what you want… being stupid….etc..maybe it is something about our age…I feel I am on a similar journey…God is opening prison doors…I know He wants me free…free in HIm…and I long to be free….to finish strong and free…willing to follow Him and His heart where ever that leads…fear is not our friend…and it becomes a task master the older we get…and I am seeing fear has so many faces…and names. I am going to get the book… blessings and joy to you both as you continue following God’s love for you both~

  22. Thanks so much for sharing. This podcast tells of the Father I am learning to know doing what He does so well, uncovering neediness and emptiness we don’t even know we have, seeking to fill us up even as our eyes are cracked open to see. Rushing in like a mighty gentle wind, surrounding us with His enough-ness.
    Last weekend we had a very close call with one of our daughters. My husband was trying to rescue her, and his brother came to his aid and she was saved (trying to keep a long story short). What really struck me was later when he (her Daddy) was thinking over what he could have done differently to rescue her quicker, what he said caught my ear. He said, “I couldn’t get myself to leave her side.”
    That’s our Daddy’s heart.

  23. “Love is not about falling….it’s about staying.”
    Thank you for giving us a chance to see the on-going work of redemption and healing God can do inside the marriage relationship. Thank you for not hiding behind a “after-37-years-we-should-have-the-perfect-marriage” wall of shame. My husband and I have faced one precipice after another in the last seven years–a couple of them, I was sure would be the death of our marriage. We understand now that the Healer is determined to rid us of all toxins, but we, too, have agonized over the question “WHY did it take 30 years?!!”
    The surgeries are terrifying and very painful, but the sweetness of putrified scar tissue being removed is worth it all.
    Thank you for your courage. Your story is a beautiful beacon of hope.

  24. You both talking about Sara feeling stupid and keeping busy to avoid thinking about life..sounds just like me! I think that’s why I can’t get close to people, I’m afraid people will think I’m stupid. I don’t let ANYONE (including family and God) get too close to me. My work and life situations have/are changing and it’s bringing up those feelings again.

  25. Hi Karin, if you’re anything like Sara NO ONE around you would think you’re stupid at all. I know it is a painful process but if you’ll let God and others get close enough you’ll discover that too and wonder why you’ve spent so many years letting someone else’s view of you define who you are. A counselor or close friend will be of great help as well. I hope you find the courage to take this on Karin and find that there is a wholehearted life awaiting you where you won’t have to pretend any more… I’m so, so sorry that something has shaped you in this way. You’re not alone. We’ve received tons of email from others who’ve found themselves in the same place. But God doesn’t make stupid people and he wants to show you how to look at yourself through his eyes. That’s my prayer for you.

  26. Thank you so much for sharing Sara. Wayne and Sara, your ministry is part of the journey God has been taking me on which has transformed my life. Thank you.
    It started with a sermon I heard called “Kiss me full on the lips” based on Songs of Solomon (not the God I had been familiar with!).
    The journey continued with “They Found the Secret” by V Raymond Edmund (not that there is a ‘secret’!), and I am now enjoying reading more about contemplative prayer, and the lives of the Christian mystics.
    But I think what I have been hearing on Lifestream Ministries about Living Loved and walking on this journey has been most free-ing.
    Thanks again.
    Pam S

  27. I wept through this. So much love to you and your amazing wife. I pray that she continues to feel Gods arms wrapped around her. Hugs and love.

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