The Antidote to Control (#462)

Current research shows how easily we all create illusions whenever it serves our own self-interest. How then can we know we are processing life around us objectively and accurately? Ultimately we can't. Wayne and Brad take on this dilemma using some listener emails and some research by Dan Ariely. By recognizing that our desires and fears make us want to take control of circumstances and people around us to our own benefit. On the other hand, genuine affection for others around us will help us seek a better reality than our own personal gain. Only by growing in love can we hope to see more accurately who we are and what's going on around us.

Podcast Links:
Order Finding Church
The audio clip we used is not linkable, but it was from Duke Researcher Dr. Dan Ariely, author of The Honest Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone--Especially Ourselves.. You can find his website here.
The latest update from Kenya.
Previous Podcast about Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me: Honest to God.
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  1. People are drawn to be controlled because it is the familiar. I believe you Brad might be confused with the why by what humans do, but human nature is we cling to the familiar until we are taught otherwise. Brad sounds like he is about to have a breakdown with disgust.

    Brad please stop screaming and laughing at what you don’t feel like you understand. For those of us new on the journey it is hard to listen to. Every time you Brad talk I have to turn down my volume. I encourage you Brad, gentleness even in your convictions will go a lot farther then your loud laughter of disbelief of why we crazy humans act the way we do.

    Love the podcast but still healing from the places I left and harshness outside is just as hard on my heart. Just my thoughts. Thank you Wayne for the way you can come beside Brad and explain the why. I feel like I am taking a big fat risk by hitting send but I also want to believe you want your listeners to be genuine and authentic. I pray that it comes across that way.

    A woman living in the messy moments of the life and the blessings of the Father.

  2. I also have been hesitant to say anything, but that is one of the reasons why my heart has not been able to open to this place.

    I have not listened to the current podcast so I am speaking of previous visits and not just one person.

    I think it is great many are being helped, although for me there has always been something that hasn’t sat right. Something in the delivery when talking about those still caught up in religious entrapments.

    We are all still growing, even this place. I try and keep that in mind.

    The Lord continue to use this place according to his will.

  3. ~Love the podcast but still healing from the places I left and harshness outside is just as hard on my heart.


  4. Thank you guys for pealing back the covers a little farther to reveal This “P word” Idol we have been making human sacrifices to for far to long!!! This strikes very close to me as I was raised under this teaching In the strictest sense. With Some of my family still sacrificing themselves and those they want to love at this alter I am finding the only antidote to this beast is to walk in the love Father is Giving each day … Only then do I see the inforcer as a victim as well. When will we realize Jesus does not want a sacrifice ? Especially not our wives , daughters, and sons!! Maybe I’m screaming a bit much . But screaming happens to come from a place where injustice pain and suffering is still a reality. So on behalf of those who are told they have no voice that counts ….. Keep asking those questions you’ve always had!!! Scream them if you have to! Its well worth the trouble you may cause!! These structures break down over time anyway…. Sooner or later the Family has nothing More to sacrifice and it all crumbles . Thanks for another great podcast !

  5. I know that words and the way in which they are expressed will be interpreted differently based on a person’s life experiences. I was surprised to hear that Brad’s words and laughter were considered somewhat offensive by the commentor above, but I don’t question they were for that person. I remember after my father passed away I was amazed at how callous I thought some comedians were when they told jokes related to dying. I am certain that I would have laughed at the same humor prior to losing my father. I feel bad for Brad and the commentor, who I appreciate for being genuine and authentic.

    My question after listening to the podcast is the same I have wanted to submit for discussion many times before – but it is a question that makes many people uncomfortable, so I have refrained – but for some reason tonight is different and I go forward with the goal to seek Truth, and readiness to be corrected if wrong. My question then is this – every time I hear of these twisted statements such as “needing a covering by men on some sort of spiritual pedestal”, being used to control and Lord over others and justified in the “Name of God” – is this not taking God’s name in vain? It seems to me that all the extra biblical authorities created in man’s religions are exactly this same offense to God and His Word. I do not seek to condemn others or engage in spiritual warfare on any issue, just to seek and love the Truth. Would love to hear heartfelt discussion on this major issue (to me) in the traditional religions of today.

  6. Started listening to it. I haven’t finished listening to the whole thing, but it has the same delivery factor that has been a problem for me in the past.

    From what I’ve heard thus far, it appears that the discussion is catered around the view of the victim, target, or whatever word you prefer.

    When I am by myself, I exercise many liberties that I would not exercise around others. Whether in a church family environment, or in the world we learn that life is not just about us and sometimes I do what my boss wants me to do even though I don’t agree and my heart isn’t in it, and as long as it doesn’t cross any ethical lines, because they are the ones placed in the position of authority there, and they are learning and growing too.

    If it’s that bad, I talk with them and if they are unwilling, I go up the ladder, or I just go.

    We aren’t the only ones in this journey and if we are to grow together, we will, at times, make sacrifices for the benefit of the ones still learning and growing along with us.

    Do know I am not denying that there are horrendous things people do for the wrong reasons. It just seems that the Wayne and Brad seemed puzzled as to why and am sharing another perspective.

  7. I thank you for this podcast, I think. It has opened up a lot of thinking for me.

    I have been controlled all of my life by males under the guise of it being scriptural.

    It is especially disheartening because I have spent my life, as much as I can remember, seeking God through it all.

    I was born the daughter of a very dominant and controlling father and then married a man who took me into a religion that was even more male dominated and controlled than the one I grew up attending.

    Even as I have grown, as I confront my husband about these things he tells me “you knew what you were getting when you married me…”

    I apologize that Brad’s laughter and noise offended some, but I needed it. I needed it while listening just to help shake my thoughts. It really is impossible to please everyone.

    I cannot go into more of this in this forum yet as I am still working through some of it. Just in tears to realize how much work I need to do in my marriage and to assure that my daughter wont follow in my steps.

    Thank you Wayne and Brad.

    Much love

  8. I liked the podcast this week, especially the parts about people who have done things for others even if it puts their own interests at risk. I found the ‘dice game’ example very interesting too.

    Related to some of the comments, I was thinking that can be a difficult context listening to people speaking (and reading comments) when I don’t know them personally. I don’t know if anyone can relate to this, but you know how as you spend time with a person you get to know how they talk and think, so that even when they say things which could easily be taken the wrong way, you know that they’re really not like that at all. I guess (at least for me) it’s difficult to interpret what people say without that kind of familiarity (in fact even while writing this, I realize this is often true of how I understand things God says too).

  9. This is something my family is going through at the moment, so Mandy is not my real name. I have had a paradigm shift in understanding the true meaning of love and submission/authority/headship in marriage, but I think it does take a paradigm shift to see it. I’m not sure if “control” is the main motivator in my case, it may be just “duty” as seen in the scriptures.

    On a previous podcast an article by Vyckie Garrison on the Quiver-full Movement was read. I could fully see and understand why she saw the whole submission/authority thing as being totally scriptural. I have too in the past. Right now, I would sometimes like to scream and rebel, but I know love does not look like that either, so I pray for God to give me His love, gentleness and patience in this matter, as I certainly don’t have it, until we move on. I know I cannot do it without Him.

    The mystery of the Church is marriage. It is vital to get the image and outworking right. This is a great mystery… as Paul said and I think we, as Church, need to go down this track, so we can see marriage and Church/The Bride clearly.

    The podcast has only scratched the surface. Down the track, I think you’ll need to write another book on marriage Wayne and Sara, as this is sorely needed:))

    Thank you again for broaching a much needed discussion.

  10. Andrew, I love your comment. And that is at the heart of my grievance.

    It comes across to me as arrogant and prideful. Whether this is true or not, I don’t know. Although, I do know what it does to me personally.

    Yet note, I did not say they are arrogant and prideful because I really don’t know what lies within their hearts. I’m just sharing how it comes across on this end.

    People can act the same, but at heart there can be very different motives. Why do we keep putting people that act the same, in the same box?

    It is easier to judge something than get to know them.

    Let me stress again, I’m glad for all who are being helped. I guess I just keep returning hoping that one day I see a change in delivery. I do know that may never happen and that may be ok. I don’t know. I can only speak for myself.

  11. Chris and Daniel, I’m sorry I haven’t been able to jump in earlier. I’ve been incredibly busy with my dad and family stuff since this is my dad’s first visit since Mom’s passing. I’m really sorry both of you felt a bit overrun by the tone of this podcast. Reading your comments, however, I’m not exactly sure what you found so difficult in this podcast. I can make assumptions, of course, which is always dangerous.

    Honestly it is not our desire to bash people who may have been victimized by some of what we talk about. In this podcast particularly I think Brad and I were addressing those who push this way of life on others through their teaching and misinterpretation of the Bible. I do get a bit angry that people who claim to know God use religious things to control and intimidate others. Remember, this is a real conversation not a show we record. At times our dander might be up and where that hits people wrongly or as arrogant, there’s not much we can do about that except to apologize. We realize people are in various stages of this journey and what might be incredibly helpful to some may be off-putting to others. We hope people find the freedom to listen to what’s helpful and disregard what isn’t. I can assure you if you were in my home sitting down to a conversation we would be much more aware of your stake in the story and have great compassion for those who thought it was real and just finding their way into a greater space of freedom. In fact our affection for them, may come out as frustration with those who have long held them captive. It may be two sides of exactly the same coin. I had hoped my very friendly conversation with Tom would make our compassion clear enough for those who are just beginning to discover what a life of love looks like.

    I do appreciate both of you taking the risk to write. I don’t want this blog to just be filled with voices that agree with us. Only by speaking the truth in love will we all be able to sort out our junk and make wider space in our hearts for others.

  12. And, “Mandy”, Sara and I have already been at work on that marriage book. We just keep learning so much about what it means to grow in selfless learning to love another human being that we’re not sure when we’ll be far enough down this road to write about it the way we want. If we’d written it two years ago, we’d already have to be in significant rewriting now! 😉

  13. Thanks everyone for this e-discussion. I also find it challenging at times to relate or connect via computer when I’d much rather sit and have a face to face conversation. The whole misreading or misunderstanding is part of that when facial expressions and nuances cannot be part of the context as we’re writing and speaking into a conversation with ppl spread out over so much area!!!!! I love and appreciate that we can be so respectful toward each other as we experience more space to hear others opinions and thoughts w/out having to defend our own position. Even though I have nothing new to add…just wanted to express that reading the flow of ideas and respect b/t ppl has helped me in the ongoing sorting out of some things. Blessings

  14. To be honest with you, I was sort of upset with some of the written responses to the podcast. I had to really take a moment, sit back and not press “send” for a few days. I really felt pain for Brad on this one. I used to walk around for fear that someone was going to criticize me for the “way” I talked – so the comments felt really personal. How can I change how I present? It is a long and arduous task in changing something that is essentially “me” – if not completely impossible – and maybe the issue is not me, but the other, so it is a misdirected task.

    Does anyone see the irony in the comments in light of the topic?

    Bless you Brad for being you. You are a unique, one of a kind, collection of God’s characteristics put into a vessel to reveal Hs glory and character to the world.

  15. “I do appreciate both of you taking the risk to write. I don’t want this blog to just be filled with voices that agree with us. Only by speaking the truth in love will we all be able to sort out our junk and make wider space in our hearts for others.”

    Thank you Wayne for the response. I do understand I come with some inner junk, distorted hearing from places I have been and felt the need to be vulnerable. Did not mean to come across so harsh.

    Trusting the conversations more them all the emotions.


  16. Thank you all for the gracious comments. John, some of us feel the same way for different reasons. Maybe even the opposite reason. And that is where we can meet if need be – we are sad, and grieved, and angry, for being judged as controlling for selfish reasons, and doing things because we are just self-centered and having selfish, ulterior motives (not saying this doesn’t happen). And, why not throw in judged for laughing too? Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the same issue?

    My name is not really Daniel. I too am using a bogus name because I feel if my name were revealed, I would be judged for having selfish motives. And to that all I can say is my conscience is clear, yet only God truly knows and I will leave it to him to reveal.

  17. Wayne, I really appreciated your comment about single girls listening and standing up to say “I won’t take this anymore.” I feel very strongly on the issue of being controlled by males. Even though some days I desperately long for a companion, I cannot thank God enough for not getting married in the culture I grew up in. I have been called all kind of names because I rebel, (and I’m not kidding, I rebel) against ALL authority over me. My Dad is surprisingly compassionate (considering his upbringing and current beliefs) and has given up trying to control me, though at times he will remind me that he doesn’t like how I live. Anyone who knows me well knows I will not accept anyone telling me how to live my life. Maybe one day I will be more relaxed on the subject, but in the meantime, I am very glad I always had a rebellious streak (though it caused a lot of grief). I would encourage everyone: nobody has the right to tell you how to live your life. As some of you can probably tell I have been hurt very much by someone who believed he had authority as a leader. I know our emotional response to everything is dependant on where we are on this journey of life, therefore everyone hears differently.

    Thanks again for the discussion, Wayne and Brad. For me, it helps listening because at this point in my journey, I don’t have a lot of people to talk to, and I think it is because I’m not ready yet.

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