Testing the Prophets (#615)
At the end of 2016, a group of prophetic leaders called the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders (Really? Yes, really.) released words of prophecy they had been given for 2017 and what God's people could expect. Now that 2017 is over, we can take a look back and see how well they did. Not too well as it turns out. That draws Wayne and Brad into a larger discussion about prophecy, its value when truly inspired by the Spirit, and the destruction it causes when the prophets need to make a profit, and desperate people find themselves dependent on others for the voice of the Lord.
Charsima article on 2017: Year of Breakthrough
Wayne's Travel Schedule in early 2018
The latest news from our project in Kenya
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Did some searches around the number “seventeen.” I had known that it is considered “bad luck” among some people. Didn’t know that included Italians, Pythagoreans in Egypt and probably the Russian Romanovs! So much for nonChristian numb-erology. I hadn’t really considered its significance in what I would term “Christian numerology.” Wow! Learn something every day!
Hey, the math whizzes probably know about Fermat’s Prime and the fact that there are only 17 wallpaper groups. There are 17 syllables in a haiku poem, and 17 clues to solve sudoku.
I thought I’d hear more about Paul’s admonition regarding the prophets in 1 Corinthians 14 and its contrast to the death of false prophets that is recommended in Deuteronomy.
It’s strange how my various feeds feed into each other.
Chip Brogden just posted an excerpt from his book, The Prophetic Mandate. He says that these seven steps apply to all maturing Christians but particularly those who consider themselves “prophetic.”
I was “all in” the “Prophetic/Apostolic/Intercessory Prayer Movement” in 1999 in Colorado Springs when I attended the “1st Gathering of the Prophets”. It seemed the voices from all the streams I was swimming in were there. I took home the composite word and lived in it. I shut down my remodeling contracting business when I got back from that conference to focus on helping America avert and maybe avoid “some” of the spanking she would certainly be receiving as a consequence of her disobedience. I paid a price for that–sold my home in early 2000 and moved my family of 4 into a YMCA campgrounds. At first when nothing happened from Y2K, I was exhilarated. Yaaaay!!, Pat me on the back! We who paid the dearest, must have done exceeding abundantly above what was asked or even thought by these great results. But something within me grew; a suspicion that there was really nothing we had done that changed anything. We had been working hard, sacrificing, for nothing. The disillusionment of the “non-event” of Y2K and the prophesied spanking of America along with other “burn-out” factors & “burning”factors, made my soul ripe to be able to hear, through the words of Song of Solomon, “Rise up my love, and come away. Leave that comfort zone behind, and come with ME. Learn to leap and skip with Me”. I experienced a mixture of deep gratitude, deep fearfulness to respond to what I perceived the Holy Spirit was saying to me without any affirmation from my peers, and a deep, new “loved by God” sensation. The 90’s had been a time for my wife and I that enabled us to begin to hear God’s voice after years prior in bland duty within mainline denominations. In 10 years with Christian International Movement joined at the hip with the World Prayer Center (sponsor of the gathering in Colorado Springs), we studied hard, “activated” our gifts, and help others “activate” their gifts. At the turn of the millennia , what we heard was, “this is not your home, these are not your people.” We literally looked at each other and said, ” we can’t stay here.” It took us a while to get acclimated to following our Father’s lead by the Spirit alone, but we have found our way into church life that is not hyped with activity. Thank God.
Thanks guys for a good conversation. It helps to recognize how far He’s brought us from where we used to live. 🙂
Powerful story, Gary. And I’m sure there is a lot of pain mixed in to all of that. But good for you for hearing God’s leading and following it when you had invested so much. Few have the courage. Thanks for sharing your story here.
Pain? what pain? :-I
Like in the book, Hind’s Feet On High Places,” pain could be characterized as one of the not-so-welcome friends accompanying our lives. Thankfully our Father gave us,(my wife & I) to each other to talk to. We always scored as similars in personality profiles; so generally, we can talk through things and actually are now the most on the same page; walking & talking with, and loved by our Father. Otherwise, we might not have much enjoyment in traveling “outside” Christianity’s boxes because, “Loneliness”also came along with “pain”; not too many other local comrades. Our family of 4, (let alone relationship with our extended fam) has, and is still having, issues that stem from those “good ole/golden days” of ramped-up religious performance that has subsided in my wife and I to a great degree. Our children were raised to their early 20’s in that environ, and are finding their way— I think? Our daughter, the oldest, a graduate of ORU as well, who we used to, (sadly) nickname, the good girl, wants nothing to do with a conversation with us about the things of God. She may be involved in the worship team at the “middle-of-the-road” church organization she, her husband and two young boys attend; she doesn’t keep us in that loop. She used to lead worship for us in our meetings, and she was really good at it. My younger, (our son) wanted to play any kind of competitive ball. Somehow, the little Christian schools we put them in in those “golden years” weren’t too competitive-sports-minded. Now, his oldest son,(9 yrs. old) is growing up in special travel teams, scheduled personal training times, two basketball leagues, hockey, and travel baseball. Neither wants too much more of our “spiritual growth” advice. Ya might know, when you find something that’s really worth preaching, living in it over time and with those closest to you, is the best way to convey it. Go figure! Have I mentioned that “cynicism” had tried to tag along with us too?
Sharon & I both love that HE thrust us across what we tend to see as your, online-church-address–Lifestream.org. We love that you’re not dinging us for “His tithes” and “Our offerings” as I and many other pastors used to cajole ourselves and others with. Couching sermons,(sorry if that seems cynical) sold in book form is a lot less manipulative. Podcasts of conversations tween you and Brad are definitely not full of performance based sermon steps into supposed spiritual growth. The dynamics of church life drawn from an I.P. internet address in the mix, are quite different then church life lived from any street address. I have looked at the online book study of “Finding Church” and love the premise, “discover together where and when Jesus is building His church around you”. Love that idea, and wondered how that’s going? Topic for another day.
Thanks Wayne for being there at Lifestream.org. You are a “bridge builder” that the people of God can utilize to get from performance based church life to the church life Jesus is building around His people, wherever we are. Your website, books, podcasts, and willingness to travel to wherever to be with people, are definitely not forming a network that you reside over as bishop— Thank God!
I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as practiced in the corporate setting. With so many uncomfortable experiences that I begin to wonder how the gifts of the Spirit SHOULD be portrayed. The longer I am simply focussing on Christ, the less important these gifts seem. Where I see them beneficial might be in small groups with some degree of discretion and accountability, but in large settings, there appears to be little to no accountability that I am not sure there is any point to it. Any thoughts on the gifts of the Holy Spirit among believers?
Hi John L. I wonder if the gifts have much value at all in “Christian services”. It seems we’ve reduced them to toys in the nursery and often use them to bludgeon each other instead of encourage each other. When I was in those environments, too many of the people who wanted to prophesy mostly just wanted the microphone. And you’re right there isn’t much accountability there without embarrassing people. That said, I still know that the Spirit wants to move through us in ways that encourage and help others. I think we’ve made too much of “the gifts” as ends in themselves, instead of just recognizing it is the Spirit moving through one person to touch another, and the focus is on the touch of Jesus not “the gift” itself. I often have words of knowledge for people, but bend over backwards to de-spookify it just sow it into the conversation as a thought that might be helpful. It’s amazing how many people hear it and refocus on it with the added embellishments. That’s how Jesus used the “gifts”, in the streets not in services. We have talked about this before, and we probably will again.
Thanks Wayne. I agree. I was introduced to the gifts of the Spirit in the context of a larger assembly, as part of the Jesus People movement when a lot of things of the Spirit were explored, but overtime it became something else. It is sometimes hard to envision “gifts of the Spirit” outside of that setting. Much like the Lord’s Supper, I guess, that has also become a ritual rather than a meal together.
As you and Brad talked in recent weeks about fake/advocacy news and the desperate need for fact-presenting outlets, I was reminded of the originally Dutch initiative The Correspondent, which is trying to go international from New York. Please check https://thecorrespondent.com/ and maybe you can find ways to support these guys (or at least mention them on air). They’re doing a tremendous job in The Netherlands with research-based, in-depth, fact-finding journalism and I hope they will bring the same to the English-speaking world.
Oh, and one more thing, you discussed race/racists/racial divide a while ago and discussed the white doll/black doll study. Brad and you attributed all or most of the preference for the white doll on racial biases and their effect on young children. I’m not so sure. I would say the difference between light and darkness (both in real life with day/night, light/shadows and spiritually (as explained to children as well as intuitive)) is a significant contribution to this bias.
I love your show and on-going dialogue. It’s a great encouragement. I am sorry I missed your recent visit to our country and Belgium, otherwise I would have joined you there. Blessings, Eric
Regarding the issue of black characters having the lead character in a book and publishers saying Christians won’t buy it. A family member and I went to see The Shack. She felt having God be a black woman was “political”!!! Really, I can’t convince her otherwise, even though she had a very abusive white father! With conservative Christians, I think that is what some if not many took away from it. ” Hollywood pushing their agenda”. Many folks aren’t ready for God to be black or a woman! But I think you’ve heard this many times.
Your ministry has helped me immensely and I am so grateful to you for the podcasts and books. Keep up the good work. As I see the congregants in churches decline in numbers and increase in age, I’ve wondered what the church will look like in 20 years. You give hope for the future of Christ’s teachings and followers. Many thanks for your ministry!