“Don’t Go Home, Beth Moore.”(#706)
The recent comments by John MacArthur about popular Bible teacher Beth Moore once again bring into question whether or not Scripture forbids women to share their gifts with the body of Christ. That invites a conversation about our view of Scripture, legalism, women, and the polarization that happens even in the body of Christ. Brad and Wayne walk through that minefield together as they share their own journey in growing beyond paradigms that cemented early in our lives that may be based on false interpretations.
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Thank you for this podcast. It’s not judgemental to say MacArthur is a legalistic pharisee…it’s simply the obvious truth.
I see we do have such scriptures to shut up loud, over-lording men too. Matt 20:25-28 is one such. Princes of the gentiles exercise dominion over others, and they that are great/loud exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you! he that is great let him be your minister/deacon, and let the chief be your servant. Even as the Son of man came…
Yes, I understand that we often hold that captive in view of the traditions of man we hold to, but taken in light of Jesus’ life and servanthood it ought to silence those of us who would lord-over God’s heritage.
Thank you for another podcast, I always learn something.
God bless you ?
John MacArthur’s sincerity towards Legalism!?, or anyone else’s for that matter, to me, now seems far, FAR less like the Jesus Christ whom we were created to follow and commune with, and more like the rulers of the Gentiles and their strong men that exercise their power and lord it over those within their sphere of influence (which was given to them by GOD to properly steward).
All word no spirit man puff up
all spirit no word man dry up
spirit and word man grow up
quote from watchman Nee
I believe that John preaches against the Charismatic baptism of Holy Spirit is. That correct?
(From Wayne:) Yes, the last i heard. but i always pray he will come to better wisdom.
I am confused…though it may appear I shouldn’t be. What is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic baptism of the Holy Spirit? I grew up attending a Pentecostal Holiness Church and graduated from the charismatic college, Oral Roberts University. I know about speaking in tongues, prophesying, etc. I married a Baptist husband, and became less concerned about “tongues”. I used to follow all things John MacArthur. I have since dropped being Baptist, John MacArthur or the need for institutional church (though I’m not antagonistic). I have chosen to directly hear from God through His “still small voice” (the Holy Spirit) and now have a direct relationship with Him without all the legalistic trappings I held to so dearly to teach me. I don’t actually hear God verbally nonetheless I KNOW His thumbprint when He guides me (most times anyway). I came to believe that all the Charismatic things I knew about were just part of my ignorance…like my ignorance believing I had to be governed by an institution. I know God’s voice….He is the One who has brought me out of so much legalism…am I missing something about the Holy Spirit? I find it hard to believe some of the Charismatic things I was taught…tongues, prophecy,healing, etc. Any suggestion for a book to read…I know to only consider it’s teaching…I’ll still allow the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth and the Bible with my reasoning.
(From Wayne:) Hi Sarah. Not sure how to answer all of this, and I don’t have a book to recommend on the subject. I too am a grad from ORU, 1975 actually! Pretty much they are the same thing, though MacArthur has said they are two different things. The Holy Spirit is the vehicle through which God makes himself known in our hearts. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the initial infilling that happens in each believer when they are regenerated in Christ, though the Charismatics make it a subsequent experience often accomplished through the laying on of hands by others and evidenced by speaking in tongues. The Charismatic movement was a powerful season of God reawakening his church to the reality of his gifts still alive today, but it quickly veered off into a materialistic, I-am-a-better-Christian-than-you movement that divided the body of Christ and became way too ego-centric.
Nonetheless being filled with the Spirit is not a one-time experience anyway, but a call to continually live inside the reality of the Spirit and follow him as he leads us with that still, small voice, or the nudges through peace, insight, discernment or whatever that draws us further into Jesus’ reality. I hope that helps. Sorry, it took so long to get to this. The last few weeks have been a bit complicated.
I used to listen to John MacArthur on my way home from work years back. All of a sudden he started slandering every TV evangelist by name…one at a time. I never listened to him again. I loved this podcast. As usual, not long enough. I could listen to you 2 talk back and forth all day. Thank you!
P.S. I like Jeff’s answer. 35 years ago the powers of darkness had a huge hold on my mind….God set me free using my relationship and His Word! That’s one thing that stood out to me….You need both!!!!
Thank you both for your Christian voice for women as equals and not as inferior due to “being more deceived than man”
Is there a podcast you have that addresses the verses in the Bible that denominations use to teach women cannot teach others except women and children? Thank you.
(From Wayne:) No, Victoria. We haven’t done one specifically on those Scriptures, though we commented on them here. There are only two of them 1 Cor 14 and 1 Timothy 2, and they seem to be applied to specific situations, not a mandated principle for everyone. Plus, those two have to be offset by the number of Scriptures that refer to women as prophets, apostles, and other workers, as well as in Christ there is neither male nor female. It’s not as easy a conclusion as those who want to repress women make it sound.
https://godswordtowomen.org/women_new_testament.pdf The article I copied here is from the late Ken Bailey. He did some really good work in places that can turn into a hornets next (as referenced above-1cor 14 etc.) mostly due to cultural misunderstanding and breathing things into the text that aren’t there. Bailey lived and taught in the middle east for over 40 years. Some of his stuff like “Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes,” or “Paul through Mediterranean Eyes” really blow the dust off and let us from the western world get a better idea of what these authors thought.
I am reminded by Beth’s own words when she said “I was the elephant in the room with the skirt on.”
A Muslim woman told one time that there are two types of Muslims. Their are intellectuals who are straight by the book and there are emotional/heart believers. These were Muslims she was speaking about.
And I’m terrifyed that I can see the same thing in Christianity. We can be so close to the truth but still miss it.
“Worship God in spirit and in truth” If all we want is rules or something to stir our emotions than I guess vany religion would do. But apart from Jesus none of this works, not even Christianity.
That’s not me preaching, this is me confessing how wrong I’ve been. I’ve lived a loose life that didn’t take God seriously, that tolerated alcohol and pornography, that has been on the far edge of fellowship with other believers and no ware near transparency or vulnerability.
This year I have been taking steps to put into action what I feel the Lord is showing me. And I’ve made advancement. But at the same time I believe I have given the enemy a foothold in my life. I’m not living in the sin that I was tangled up with. But I feel like this is my last opportunity to escape and live the life that I’m called to.
Just remember, apart from him we can do nothing. Freedom is his battle in you, not yours for him. May you find his fullness rising in you giving you the grace, the courage, the strength to find a deeper level of connection and in that your freedom!