The Church Jesus Modeled (#809)

Wayne and Kyle begin where they left off last week, if our models of "planting churches" continue to have a build-up a body count of passionate men and women shipwrecked on their own insecurities and disappointed expectations, how can the church Jesus is building find expression in the world? They begin with the fact that Jesus never encouraged anything with his disciples that looks like the "churches" we've ended up with today.  What does it look like to facilitate environments in which the kingdom of God finds expression and lives are transformed to actually get to know God and then have the trust and freedom to follow him as he invites them into his reality.

Podcast Notes:
Facebook Page for planning a gathering of twenty and thirty-somethings
Past Podcasts with Kyle
My Friend Luis, the podcast
Order Wayne's new book Live Loved Free Full


  1. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. It seems to me that Jesus was always looking for a point of maturity in others, a walk with the Father. We see that in Ephesians 4:11-16 as well.
    Religion, it seems to me, is repulsed by maturity because then there is no more dependence on the machine.
    Therefore the machine loses power/control over that person, which is evident by the manipulation trying to put you back under that control.
    Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made you free.

    • Sadly true. It’s hard having free people hanging around a conformity-based environment. They end up serving the institution out of loyalty than riding the wind of the Spirit.

  2. Thank you brother!
    God is emphasizing Jn 14:20 to me as the core of our life with/in God, and all the ramifications thereof.
    Grace and peace!

  3. Another great podcast. I really appreciated the conversation here. I am listening to the podcasts over on Christianity Today, but what I have listened to so far feels more like they’re missing the point, or there is a marked sadness over all. The conversation is definitely good, but I feel this sense of hopelessness when I listen to their podcasts, vs when I hear Wayne and Kyle talking about all this on The God Journey. Maybe it’s because they “get it”, and Christianity Today is still trying to figure it out?

    For myself, I am becoming more firm and free in the reality that an institutionalized church is no longer the answer. I am trying to remember to not create a new box, however, for other people by saying that very thing itself is bad. It seems to work for a lot of people. It doesn’t for me. The temptation to follow a man vs enjoy my relationship directly with Jesus is very real (and I wasn’t raised Catholic, but man, you would think I was!).

    It’s been two years since I officially stopped going to church. I do miss “corporate worship”, and I am currently looking for a group of ladies to read through a book together because I miss and need more fellowship in my life. But beyond that, I can breathe more freely, and actually enjoy my faith outside of an institutionalized church far more than inside. There is no one looking over my shoulder, for one thing!

  4. My wife and I left the IC years ago, and now meet occasionally and semi regularly with other believers. I guess that is more of an Relational Church or Conversational Church. We prefer not to have a ‘study’ because that tends to lead to structured questions that we spend more time trying to coming up with a right answer than relating to each other. Our conversations stem more from our daily lives or our reactions or responses to current events, all the time realizing that we get very little fact or accuracy in any of the news vehicles. We also have learned to embrace uncertainty as a part of our natural growth, and by realizing how little we really can understand of our universe and of Father’s love. I know that is difficult for a lot of folks, but the last thing I would do is try to get someone else to do what works for me, when the probability is that what works for me won’t work for you. Our homes are cluttered by ‘self-help’ books that are purchased because of our desire to find something that works for me; in spite of overwhelming evidence that what works for one person is not likely to work for another. If I were to suggest anything, find something that brings you peace and enjoy that. I guess that is akin to ‘be still and know’….

    • It feels a bit awkward even putting terminology to it, doesn’t it? It’s just life and the interactions and collaborations God gives us with others that nurture our life in Jesus and our engagement with others in his world. Would that it could stay so simple and that people would find it by following the Master, not by chasing a model they think they can implement. I love this.

  5. Joel Cooper, Wayne , one of the best podcast yet, and I’ve been listening for years !
    I have many friends in all different stages of “still there”, or wandering around in the wilderness, in home churches etc. that I will send this to !

    I did have one question, Kyle ask you about the teachings of Paul about Elders, Bishops, Pastors, Teachers etc. , that seem to be referring to some kind of process of equipping the Saints , for the Saints to go minister !
    This sounds like this was in some types of gatherings. I’m sure nothing like Inst. Churches today, but in some kind of community that met in homes or on the hillside !

    Could you focus on those references a little more and how we might see that in our Day and still not fall into the “Organized Religion” trap ?
    Also ref. 1 Cor 12,13, and 14 ?
    Thank you !
    Blessings !!!

  6. Thanks for your comment, Joel. It may be time to cover that again, but it is one we’ve done before. It is easy to understand why those of us who grew up in meeting-centered expressions of “church” can only see that these gifts can only fit in that framework. However, once you’ve seen these gifts function in more organic ways you will discover how much more effective they can be. Yes, it will involve “gatherings”, but more like apprenticeships than classrooms, conversations than lectures, as powerful with 2s and 3s as if there’s 25 or more. These gifts were never meant to be compressed into an institutional framework and doing so actually diminishes them.

    This one from the past may help:

    • Thanks Wayne for your thoughts !

      I am being very blessed by living life / church the way I know you recommend .

      Since the first time I met you at Panera Bread, 6 years ago , my walk with God has become so broaden with now close friends here in Nashville area to the Central Coast in California, with the people that one of them showed you the Winery facility there in Paso Robles .

      I meet in small groups , on many Zoom connections, etc.

      I’m just exploring how those relationships could be enhanced , if they’re even supposed to be .

      Taking things to the “next level” may be only a Carnal business phrase that should have no place in any vision !

      Thank you for all your help, books and meetups.

      Blessings !!!

      • Great to hear from you, Joel. So blessed to hear of your freedom and fruitfulness in a different way of viewing Jesus’ church. To clarify for others, however, I don’t recommend any particular way of “doing church.” She takes lots of different expressions in the world and Jesus needs to lead each of us into the expression he has for us.

    • Five years? A lot can change in five years. The change came gradually over a bit of time. Brad’s priorities shifted and it made it more complicated to podcast together. It also seemed clear that God wanted some younger voices to join the podcast.

Comments are closed.