When Our Safe Boxes Aren’t Safe (#815)

What do you do when the religion you were raised with is in conflict with the drawing of Jesus in your heart? It's happening to more and more people, and those who go on to fruitful journeys are able to separate between the brokenness in religion from the reality and presence of God. Kyle and Wayne begin by reading emails from recent podcasts that extend their conversation about vaccines, hiddenness, and trespassing, before talking about those who are finding a genuine faith beyond the failures or fruitlessness of their religious engagement.

Podcast Notes:
Wayne's podcast with Tom Mohn:  The Keeper and the Kept
Facebook Group for 2030s Gathering in Colorado
My Friend Luis, the podcast
Order Wayne's new book Live Loved Free Full


  1. Wayne, once again thank you for having the conversation on the vaccine and providing your older brother on the road view. Still not sure where I stand on this – as a good friend once told me “if you have questions, put it before God and let Him work it out”.
    Today’s podcast that we are not our brothers keeper resonates. I am responsible to love others, not control them but to walk alongside them for as long as I have peace to do so. Our professional lives teach us to be “change agents”, yet God wants us to let Him do that. I want to live free, to love those God puts in front of me without the need to control them and pray that the God provides me with the ability to this in every area of life.

  2. Hi Wayne and Kyle,

    First of all, y’all are some brave dudes. You two compliment each other very well. I can understand how folks can feel like they are being “triggered” by your conversation, especially during this and the last podcast.

    Folks were just tore out of their frame over the comments made. Anger seems to be rearing its head in so many ways in this world. It is so scary at times. So I decided several months ago to stop watching the news (except for weather and the Olympics). It helped me to realize how offended I was becoming at anything anyone said that I disagreed with… I didn’t like how controlled I felt, by the world. That’s when I decided to just go before ABBA and “renew” my identity in Him. That was the first time I felt so much peace…HIS peace. There is a lot more that went into my little saga, but that’s how I was able to listen to what you both had to say.

    On a personal note concerning the vaccine, I did have some hesitation. As a black woman and knowing the history of how black folks were treated in American history; using us as “test subjects”, it was a hard decision to make. But now I am glad I took the vaccine. Again, I had to go to ABBA to find my identity in HIM. It was one of the most Peaceful processes I have ever had.

    You and Kyle keep up the brave work of Papa. I may not relate to you guys all of the time but it’s not because you offend me. Nope, I think it’s because you challenge me. That can be a good thing.

    Be safe,


    • Marcia,
      Thank you for this. You just showed me a path that I think I have been hearing in the quiet spaces of my days. I know each of us hear from Abba in an individual level. I await that direction.


  3. You are very welcome Lesa. Talk about a GOD Journey, whew!! One of the books that I read is Wayne’s daily devotional, Live Loved Free Full. It has helped me in more ways than I expected. Just to let you know, I read several days at a time, especially if the days have a certain theme to them. But that’s just me.

    In the meantime and if you don’t mind, I will being praying for your “quiet spaces” to be just a little bit louder.



  4. Hi Marcia, appreciate your personality coming through in your writing : ) In my pressures also learning to hear Fathers voice beyond the “din” of news voices, well meaning people/family applying pressure….wow to live in the freedom of HIS voice. May my ears become better tuned to hear his whispers and gentle nudges. Bless you, Sue

  5. Thank you, Sue. I really appreciate your comments. I’ve been told I write like I talk. Lately, I have been trying to speak less and listen more, especially to Papa. It’s been an amazing experience. May ABBA bless you too. If it’s okay, I will pray for your ears and your freedom to hear Papa’s heart/voice clearly through whatever source He sees fit to use.

    Holla atcha,


  6. I have always had a lot “voices” in my head shouting for my attention. As I began to understand the love of the Father, I had to start ignoring most of them because they did not bring me life. They were ignorant, condemning voices. Voices that create despair and uncertainty. They were leading me to mental breakdown.

    The current situation in the world with global communication and everything instantly at your fingertips has created so many more new voices. Everyone clamouring for their 15 minutes of fame, and demanding to be heard – their opinion and their truth. It is primarily verbal diarrhea – as one Canadian civil servant put it: social media has become a vomitorium.

    I have often wondered if we as humans were simply not created to consume this amount of information, especially the way it comes to us now. It has only been in the last number of decades where human beings have begun to experience this type of information overload. We are being overwhelmed, and it is man’s inventions that have led us to this point. So, I am not surprised that we are living with so much distress today. It is of our own making.

    Recently I heard a small voice say to me: “I am trying to teach you quietness of heart.” In the following days, I had that same message repeat itself through scriptures and devotions that came across my path. So I sat up and paid attention. It resonated with me deeply especially since I have always struggled with restlessness and uncertainty about who I am, and what I am to do. In my meditation of quietness of heart, I realize that practising His presence is the only thing that leads to quietness of heart. Who I am and what I am to do evolves out of the quiet presence with the Father.

    I believe, more that ever we need to “take every thought captive to the lordship of Jesus.” There is a need to be discerning in our consumption of “knowledge”. The knowledge the Bible encourages us to seek is the knowing of God, not the depths to which human beings are manipulated, misguided or destroying each other. Nor is it the continual effort to find ways to protect and save ourselves. The Lord is our refuge, our shelter, our fortress. Do we believe this? While we seek ways to fortify ourselves, he invites us to dwell in the shadow of his wings.

    Now, if I would just remember to run to Him….

    • John, Wow!
      Thank you for these words. I am thankful I was led to listen and respond on this thread. I am fasting all media news and want and need to hear His voice and direction for my life.

  7. John, you nailed it!!! I really appreciate your insight on this. The “vomitorium” was getting to me. Such an apt description of the world’s noise. I have and am still learning the Peace and Quiet of Papa. I cannot thank you enough for your wonderful post.

  8. Lots of informative insight and inspiration to digest John! Thank you for taking a moment to share!

  9. I love this verse from Psalm 31:20. I think it fits like a glove with regards to our turning to our Heavenly Father to protect us from all of the strife generated through the internet and social media.

    Psalm 31:20 You hide them in the secret place of Your presence from the conspiracies of man;
    You keep them secretly in a shelter from the strife of tongues. (NASB)

  10. Wayne,

    I appreciate all you’ve done over the years for not only my walk with God but for how much you’ve helped countless others around the globe. I listened faithfully from the very first podcast until around the time that you and Brad went in different directions. I come back every once in a while to catch a podcast or two. That being said and with all the craziness going on in the world, I looked to see what you guys had to say and listened to last weeks’ podcast. There were a lot of great things said but I have to take issue with how you framed the narrative concerning personal choice and the common good at least in regards to the COVID vaccine.

    I waited to respond because I knew there would be those who would also take issue and you’ve always been willing to answer those concerns on a later podcast. Your response helped me understand your position better; however, there is more that needs to be addressed.

    Regardless of the common good, any medical decision is a personal choice. For myself and many others, we are not anti-vaccines, we just don’t trust many key things we’ve been told about both the COVID virus and the vaccine by the media and the government.

    Obviously, you and I have come to different conclusions on the vaccine and that’s okay. What is not okay is your voice joining the chorus of those in the media and the medical profession that are framing the narrative as a personal choice versus common good which makes us to be at best second-class citizens and at worst monsters. No, what we are concerned with is our personal health and the health of our families just as you are of yours.

    Also, looking at your comments in the Comments section last week, when someone challenges your beliefs that is not condescending. What is condescending and also falling into the trap of creating straw man arguments, is assuming people not wanting to take the vaccine are finding proof-texts to support their beliefs. Many of us have not come to these conclusions because we’re looking for these “proofs” but because this is the information we found when we went looking.

    Of course, this is not going to stop me from checking in from time to time since I continue to value your opinion. And I will never forget how you helped me at a time when I needed it the most. Love you!

    • I think you’re assuming, Daniel, that what I’m saying about SOME people not getting the vaccine applies to ALL people not getting it. That would not be true, nor a broad brush I’d paint with. I listen when people tell many why they are not vaccinated and most I know are reacting to fears and false information. I only speak of proof-texting when people only have one side of an issue and haven’t wrestled with differing information. We have made room for people to have medical concerns that don’t make them good candidates for the vaccine. Nevertheless, it is undeniable at this point that the current surge is largely a health concern for the unvaccinated. This weekend, three thousand people died this weekend of COVID in a 24-hour period. More than ninety-nine percent of those were unvaccinated. The vaccine is not perfect nor without, but it is effective and the only proven way to keep our hospitals from being overwhelmed with the infected.

  11. Thx for a great podcast and to everyone for their comments. Seems like battling the noise of social media/news is a challenge for many. I would love to feel His peace (Marcia) and John’s comment about practicing his presence struck a chord.

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