In the mid-1100s, Bernard of Clairvaux, a mystic and monk in France, considered how we experience the love of God. He published a devotional called the Love of God, in which he identified four degrees, or progressions: (1) loving ourselves for our own sake, (2) loving God for our own sake, (3) loving God for his own sake, and (4) loving ourselves for God’s sake. In a fascinating conversation, Wayne and Sara ponder these progressions in their individual relationships with God and in their relationship with each other, before the revelation of Sara's trauma and after.

Podcast Notes:

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• The Love of God by Bernard of Clairvaux

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